Important lessons

[macbond]

Having found this board by way of earlier post regarding brook trout restoration in the Smokies, I have an observation I would like to share with you all.

After 19 years of trying to save and improve our cold water streams throughout the Southeast, I have learned that we can make a difference, but only if we have the science to back up our statements. Several events have led me to seek out the fisheries professionals that work for the state fisheries department in non-political positions for the knowledge that only their experience can bring.

One event is the delayed harvest program we all love. If not for people like Fred Harris in NC and others in GA and TN, there would be no DH because of the political pressure to keep the streams "keep what you catch". Another event was the stopping of trout pen aquaculture on Fontana and other lakes that might have ruined wild trout in a lot of primo streams. Yet a third is the push to build a weir dam and maintain adequate flow to make the Holston tailwater the great fishery it is today.

But none of these events would have happened without the convictions and pressure of those of us who care about the resource backed by good science to get the desired outcome.

The web is a great source of knowledge about our fisheries. Please, before someone goes off the deep end about a rumor, check out some sites or send a few e mails to the experts before we all become raving lunatics.

Keep up the good dialogue. I will join in as time permits. Maybe I'll see some of you fishing the great streams in the Smokies and we'll be able to swap some lies over a cold one.

[NiteOwl]

Thanks macbond. We're an ever evolving group that's just really getting our feet wet in terms of helping to preserve trouting for future generations. Your comments are more than welcome. Please visit with us often. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Owl

[Frequent Flyer]

Owl!?

Is that you?

[The Ole Man]

mac
You have to be at least the fourth person to come on here and preach to us about "getting the facts before commenting", "getting the facts straight", "going off the deep end over a rumor", "becoming raving lunatics?(good one), "checking some sites", asking some quote "experts". Enough already!! You would think this is a major national debate or something. I can only surmise by the sensitivity and defensiveness over this issue that it is not fairing very well in North Carolina. I saw a reference ,in the other thread, to an article in the Asheville newspaper about it. We have no idea what that said. What did it say? I would say some people on this Board are for the project, some are against it, some don't know whether they are for it or against it and a bunch don't care. We have a great many of the facts already-do you folks mind if we form our own opinion without being sold the one you have??

[Lisa Klein]

Actually, Mac has a point about spreading rumors etc...

One only had to look at the recent "brook trout management" thread to see that. A former board poster was found to be concocting stories and lying about things DNR personnel (mainly me) were saying and causing a heap of trouble (he has now been banned from this site) People were starting to believe what he was saying, and if his thread were allowed to go on, it might have caused permanent damage between the folks on that thread and DNR. Luckly I found out about it and was able to defend myself, however, not everyone in state agencies (SC, NC, TN or GA) involved with trout frequents this site, so remember this..........

"A lie gone unchallenged becomes the truth within 24 hours"

[edwin]

Taking the middle road as you can see by my use of the side arrow, I'd have to agree in part with T.O.M. and in part with Lisa and Owl. First, as the T.O.M. said, many of us do know a great deal about "the facts" and if we don't, we generally find them out before forming an opinion. I think I can honestly say that the folks who use this board are reasonable and rational in all things troutlike. Second, it is healthy for us to challenge certain statements and claims that appear to be untrue on their face. Even if we end up being wrong, at least we got the information through a "heated discussion" and were able to revise opinions and admit mistakes, except of course, for the undersigned who never makes mistakes or commits any sin http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

Finally, I don't know what posts or people macbond was referring to as "going off the deep end" in response to certain rumors, but it sounds to me as if he meant no harm (it's often difficult to know what people mean in an email). Also, I think some scathing responses to facially untrue rumors or outrageous propositions are necessary in order to feret out the truth. So let's keep it up!! Always challenging rumors, information, and doing our own research is what this site is all about!!

--Edwin

P.S. Now that I have reread this post, it appears that T.O.M. and Lisa are in agreement with certain things, i.e., that we should challenge certain rumors because we do know the facts and can find them out. All you have to do is look at the info posted by Owl to realize that.

[This message has been edited by edwin (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Jah Live!]

Lisa,

Wouldn't you consider this site to be an excellect forum to "challenge a lie". My point being that we should welcome ALL posts, valid or not, because it gives people like you the opportunity to set them straight. All this bantor about "getting the facts straight before you post" is a crock of #*&@! NGTO is where we come to get the facts straight! If I hear a rumor, I would hope I could come here to verify of discard it. If I didn't feel comfortable posting that rumor because I didn't have my "facts straight", then a potential lie would truly go "unchallenged".
If everyone were to "know the facts", then why would they need to come here? (except of course to get a good dose of Owl humor)

Jah Live!

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Get over it already!

Ever see the commercials on TV about investing - KNOW YOUR SOURCE -
well, if you accept at blind faith everything you read on any internet site, e-mail me for a deal on great oceanfront lot I have in Idaho.

Truth is eternal - it may be temporarily subdued, but it will always prevail.

I have decided to use discretion and not comment on the practice of banning people from this board at this time. It troubles me.

[edwin]

Yeah, what Jah Live! says. Seriously though, isn't this why we come here? Lisa, you and Jah actually agree on certain things, i.e. outrageous and harmful rumors help no one, but posts invovling misinformation or misunderstanding can be very valuable. Then, all of our fellow NGTO'ers can set the misinformed peons (like me) STRAIGHT!!

[This message has been edited by edwin (edited 04-07-2000).]

[woz]

Being new to the Georgia Trout situation, I have no idea what the DH is and what's being planned for the future. So, I have no opinion until I hear the facts. Can anyone point me to where I can obtain credible information showing the Pro's and Con's?

[Tommy Hunter]

I have to say I agree with Black Knight on banning users from this Board. I do not believe that you take away a persons right to express there opinions or lies just because you don't like them. If these things are not brought to light and confronted how can we ever know the real truth. From her posts and what I've read in GON, I have developed a respect and sincere appreciation for Lisa and what she does for us. However, when a poster is banned because of a statement he/she made concerning a certain conversation (most here know what thread I mean) they had, it kind of makes me wonder who was telling the truth. If truth is what we're after, that should not be allowed. I think that is how oppressive governments work--when someone speaks out against them whether true or false, they strangely disappear. Lisa, if you read this, I am by know means saying anything bad about you, I'm just concerned about what happens to me, or others, if we post something we believe to be the absolute truth and are banned because someone don't remember it the same way or doesn't like it. I love a good argument and fight from time to time, but let's all remember, when the dust clears, we are on the same side.

Tommy

[This message has been edited by Tommy Hunter (edited 04-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tommy Hunter (edited 04-07-2000).]

[betzel]

and a fun time was had by all...

I agree for the most part with T.O.M., discussion involves people giving their thoughts, ideas and perceptions. If we try to limit what people say, we will lose valuable insight and quite possibly limit our personal development. If we don’t have people giving insight from every angle, how is it possible to EVER form our opinions? Untrue rumors, in a community, this size will ALWAYS be challenged and many ideas will come forth. That said I also believe that we as individuals have a responsibility to the NGTO community to not purposefully insight a riot. Out of respect for each other a certain level of civility should generally be maintained.

I think that Lisa Klein has a right as a person to be upset. But should the statements have resulted in excommunication? Not in my opinion. I think that banning someone is extreme and uncalled for.
But the comparison between this action and an oppressive government is unfair. When registering we all must click the “agree” button. Above this says:
“you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law” and “Although this BB does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this BB reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever.”

We agree to follow the rules and recognize the fact that NGTO is the god of the board, no questions asked.

As a side note if you haven’t read the brook trout proposal for the GSMNP streams, you should, it is very interesting reading and very informative.


[This message has been edited by betzel (edited 04-07-2000).]

[The Ole Man]

Just for clarification, before this gets tooo deep, what Mac is speaking of in his fifth paragraph is the thread here "National Park to remove non-natives". JAB III came on with his first ever post and announced that NPS was going to eradicate all the rainbow and brown trout in GSMNP in favor of the brook trout. I think, and I hope, no one here actually thought that was possible. Given the vastness of GSMNP and its connections to outside waters, it was a ridiculous proposition. Not only is it not prudent, not attainable, but also not affordable. Given that, and the fact that I have read several articles in the newspaper over the last 3 to 5 years about the program, I have to admit that I made light of it in my posts. I saw it as nothing new and figured everyone else already knew about it. I e-mailed with a trusted friend here at NGTO last week about the issue. I told him then that the logic of supporting the project is this: The rainbow trout is plentiful around the globe. The Southern Appalachian Brook Trout is not plentiful- and should be helped if possible. I am also realistic enough to know that there are groups that will oppose the project for no other reason than that the Federal Gov is involved. There are also groups that will oppose it for no other reason than one group of fish must be eradicated for the benefit of another. As I said previously, I sense a testiness about the issue coming from folks in NC and must believe that it is becoming a heated issue there. I simply felt that the repeated scoldings directed to NGTO were an affront to our intelligence and our ability to discover and know the truth. I personally am far more concerned about what a "Wilderness" designation for GSMNP will mean to the angler than I am about the Brook trout rest. project.

[jeffg]

wasn't Thomas Jefferson who stated " A revolution every now and then is good for a nation." Which I have always interpreted as stating, Every now and then you have to stir up a little dust in order to have people trully think about issues.

Most attacks, or postings that **** others off is do to emotions. Emotions are usually how one reacts to statements that the fish are being removed or that the sun comes up in the west now. Emotional responses are good for this board and for ones soul. We do not have any emotional responses without Passion behind those statements. No passion about fishing, trout, or the beautiful places we go to find fish is death for our sport.

So to you people who say dont post before you know the facts, well tough s h i t, i will allow my passions and emotions to flow, and continue to learn the facts as I go along.

no one knows everything, and wisdom is gained by asking questions, researching, Speculations, and proof..........
You know the Scientific Method.....

[This message has been edited by jeffg (edited 04-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jeffg (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Windknot]

Busy lunch hours, I see!

I'm disappointed that Lisa was attacked personally & professionally by what appears to be a series of lies. That was absolutely uncalled for and inexcusable. Thank goodness I don't remember an episode like it on the board.

Regarding the idea of having *all the facts* first, well, we need some excitement in our lives that doesn't involve loved ones, mortgages or health! The critical issue is that we *eventually get the straight poop* and uncover the facts. Speaking of which, I nominate Owlie for the first NGTO "Cut'n Paste" Merit Badge for the GSMNP Brookie Restoration Proposal info. For a design - crossed Night Owl Specials? With an EHC cluster?

As long as we don't deliberately try to mislead, no harm, no foul.

Don

PS - woz - Delayed Harvest. Streams that get too warm in summer are stocked in cold weather, fished catch-and-release until the start of warm weather, then switched to catch-and-cook. Pretty cool!

[Rod]

Ok, I have to weigh in...thanks Jeff, as usual you are right on. T.O.M. everyone seems to be speaking the same thing here.

I will tell you this, if GG is banned I'm ready to pack up myself...slandorous or vile or not...banning him is not the answer. I don't even know the guy, but if this board is going to be about banning a, on the whole, good poster then **** the board---nice emotion eh Jeff.

Ban me btw...going to block my IP? Keep me from coming back as a differenct handle? This is bull **** anyway.

How do I know that lisa isn't full of **** and hiding so great DNR conspiracy of deadly, posinous Brookies that GG had to be eliminated?

Rod
"Welcome all hunters, fisherman and other liers."
BPS

[Lisa Klein]

I can appreciate everybodies opinions. You all have a complete and inalienable right to state them. This country allows that after all. However, when a person slanders someone else, or in other words, personal defamation occurrs, then not only does it become hurtful, personnally and professionally, but it then becomes a legal matter. Everyone should remember that.

I have no reason to lie to the public. I did not take this job for the money, I am in this career for the love of the resource. If I have to say "no comment" on something, generally that means I am still in a data collection stage and can't give an official comment yet. Many of the things I work on are very controversial (thats the least of what the Hooch is) and require extensive data collection and proof of existance before I can officially comment.

I am however, open to suggestions and statements and most of all questions concerning anything I manage. I have no reason to bury these things under a heap of burecratic bull&*#% like some would like to think (I am not pointing this to anyone in particular). There is no conspiracy at DNR to squash your ideas or suggestions, however, since we have gone through formal education to get our training, our management decisions are based on good fisheries management principles.

We are more than willing to consider something if it's within the realm of possibility. All I ask is that people keep the lines of communication open.

and for the record, that little saying I put in my last post? I didn't come up with it, Clark Howard did (the master of consumerism!) and he didn't get to be a multimillionaire from being stupid!

[BLACK KNIGHT]

GG was a good poster, I learned a lot from his posts, and will be a better fisherman for his thoughts. I found, however, some of his uncivil remarks toward other members rude.
Banishment, however, seems extreme.
Let it go. I'm sure you are an honorable person with good reason to be upset. But Lisa, you really seem intent on beating a dead horse. Is this the third or fourth time we've had to read about the incident with GG? GET OVER IT!
There are so many remarks that beg a response, but I don't want to be perceived as attacking anybody. Would not want to be banned or anything.

[Tommy Hunter]

What has anyone said on this board (me or otherwise) that could be considered legal slander. I can call the President a liar (which would be the truth), but that's not legally slander. Just wondering if I read something wrong. Too bad I can't go back and re-read it.

Tommy

[NiteOwl]

As I sit here and shake my head, I'm wondering how we got to this point. It's a complicated thing( or has become such...)

I see the "points" of all involved. AND I agree that banning someone from the board is an extreme thing to do. Let me also say that ( No offense to Lisa or Grey Ghost or anyone else) when you log into NGTO and read the posts, you don't know who is lying and who is telling the truth. When I post that I had a 5 lb. rainbow on, or a 50 fish day, or that I got shamed and skunked, you all don't know if I'm lying or not. Now, granted, those of you that know me better than just as some whacko-NGTO addicted nut, know that I tell the truth. If I do well, I say so, if I don't I "may" say so. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif ....but the truth is you just don't know.
As for Lisa Klien, her position and title help ME to put more credibility into her statements, than, say, someone I've never met - a la Grey Ghost. You may not feel the same way, and that's fine. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
On the other hand, Grey Ghost has no reason to lie to me, personally, so I had no reason to NOT believe him.( Although he has said a few things before all this that were somewhat on the rude sifde of things, IMHO.)

As I told Lisa in an email, none of us know each other that well( with a few exceptions in my case - folks I have fished with and such). Most of our trust in each other comes from valid statements made here, about a hundred different things, in a hundred different posts, over some period of time. GG and Lisa are fairly new to "the board" and I have not spent any significant amount of time with either of them.
Thus, for me( and not necess. for you ) it all comes back to this......


Lisa works for the DNR, and has an ongoing relationship with concerned members of this board and citizens of the state of Georgia. Her position requires a high amount of responsibility to both the public( if she's nice enough to feel that way, and she seems to be.....) and the State of GA. Grey Ghost is a semi-newbie poster that, when confronted with the accusations of being a liar, had no response other than some " yadda, yadda, yadda" type stuff. I believe that, had he been telling the truth, he'd have had a better defense for his statements.

Lastly, I think you should be allowed to say what you think of things. Ideas, rumors, proposed actions by the powers that be, John Rocker, The Prez. and her husband, Elian Gonzolas, Garth Brooks, the NBA, school shootings, and anything else like that, BUT, to say demeaning things to someone, personal and business-type things, and to say them to a VAST group of people, and then to have nothing ( read NADA !) to back up those claims..........................that's called defamation of character, and in my book,....just plain RUDE.

So, should he have been banned....maybe not.....but then again, if someone told all of you that I wasn't doing my job with some public dept.( and couldn't be trusted or believed,( in a role where I supply my employer with critical technical info) and was working to keep you all in the dark, I suppose I'd feel different.

Causing someone hardship at work and calling them incompetent is something none of us should tolerate.

I have to say that, because I've met her, and she holds the position that she does, and because she's never given me any reason to doubt her, and because she's told us more than we'bve ever been told before.......I believe Lisa.


And a lack of a solid defense by GG made that even more of an easier decision.


That's not to say that I'm right...that's just to tell you what I believe to be right.


YMMV - a la Drifter....

[Tommy Hunter]

I wish the citizens of Gwinnett County felt the way Owl was talking about (not saying that's the way you feel Owl). Believe the government guy because he's the government guy. My life would be easier. Here its usually "he's the government guy so he's lying." I think I'm gonna sue 325,000 of the 550,000 people in Gwinnett for defamation of character. I see that point as well as I see mine. Mine being that if you shut someone up because they call you a liar, you're probably the liar (or a democrat). Sorry I slammed any of you democrats out there -- NGTO, please don't ban me, I won't say it again.

Tommy

[This message has been edited by Tommy Hunter (edited 04-07-2000).]

[NiteOwl]

I cannot say that I understand that. Unless your saying that there's some sort of joint NGTO-DNR coverup going on here, which is far-fetched at best and ludicrious at worst.
BUT that's just my take on it....nothin personal T.H.


Owl

[Tommy Hunter]

No offense taken Owl ol' buddy.

Tommy

[This message has been edited by Tommy Hunter (edited 04-08-2000).]

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Oh, enough already. There are only two people who know 100% of this story, and they only know 50% each. Believe who you want or need to. Maintain freedom of speech and debate on this board. Don't accuse people of legal slander unless you understand the term and its implications. Don't accuse people of conspiracy without some facts. 'Nuff said. How about some constructive talk? What's hitting what and where?

[fishnsmygame]

By the close of the day last Thursday, this thread seemed to have room for added substance. Friday, I pondered a post under this thread while my wife and I worked in the yard and planted our garden. When I brought myself up-to-date on the NGTO Message Digests early Saturday morning, it was rather obvious a number of other people shared my view. The experience was enlightening and intriguing (enjoyable or fascinating).

At the risk of clogging this rather clear stream of information, I'll attempt to relate what has proven useful for me:

"Formal education is achieved through classroom environments. Wisdom is gained through observations and experiences. Experience is not necessarily the preferred method of learning, but it is the most thorough method of learning." Knowledge enhances potential for prosperity and longevity, and assuming that true, then perhaps knowledge also relates to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

Lessons are sometimes unforgiving, forever, void of 2d chance. We read about them in the headlines of newspapers every day; other extreme examples are seen in prison with the worse cases found on death row. To me, observing and learning from the mistakes made by others - critical or otherwise - seems a wise thing to do. (Other related but not all inclusive threads; "Missing Thread" to include the missing link, and "Do you know who I am?")

Commentary:

Everything in life has rules, bar nothing. Seems prudent to study and understand the rules before entering a playing field. Once the field is entered the rules of the playing field prevail, and extremely severe violations result in ejection; choice of the umpire or referee. Much like the disruptive student expelled from the classroom; the consequence stems from purely personal choice of the individual.

Useful information belongs on this bulletin board and the source of useful information is from the minds of people. I hate to think about banning a human mind from anything; seems such a waste. Human behavior and character are important issues that directly relate to rules! Regardless, the choice of whether or not to play by the rules is purely personal (individual or private).

A couple of important lessons reflecting from information posted on the NGTO board during the past few weeks: "Statements made with an objective focus on subject issues - void of profanity or grossly inappropriate or degrading ridicule or verbal assaults; not all inclusive - does not get the writer or the information banished from this board. Information posted on this board may be severely flogged by interactive members of the board leaving the author feeling assaulted; but although important, emotions alone don't get a writer or the information banished from the board. Appears one cannot go wrong by following the rules of the playing field - this board - while making objective statements or asking a clear question that stimulates objective response."

------------------
Sam

[Lady Jane]

Well put Sam. The whole point of the "Do you know who I am" post was to share an unpleasant experience and make others aware that I had made a huge mistake and maybe someone would think about what they say or do in a similar situation and not repeat my mistakes.