Take that*****and that!!!!

[Flyguy]

For the record I think C&R topics are great for the board. I myself keep a few once in a while and when I do keep them I try to harvest fish from areas that are over populated..such as the Hooch. I started fly fishing for steel head in Michigan and even though these fish where stocked and are still stocked they have had a hard time getting the reproduction cycle going out side of the hatchery. I felt buy doing the C&R thing it would help the spawning fish survive and possible reproduce. I seen alot of people take there limits 2 or 3 time a day and for a while the population went down and some of the hot spots I fished went belly up so to say. When and if I kepted a fish it was a male...all the females went back into the water with great care. When the fish get on the redds you will usually see 3 to 6 males on one female...I guess the males just out number the females and lets face it...females carry the load in the reproduction area.

I am not for or aginst C&R, but what ever I decide is right for me is what I will do no matter what others think. I think we should all respect each others opinions. I am not against a little swpping of words and views, but lets not push people away that contribute great info to this board.



Take that....&%$^#$^*%%&*



Flyguy

[Ken Smith]

I couldn't agree more
ken

[SideWinder]

Hi folks. I'm new to the NGTO site but have found it to be a great place to visit. I've enjoyed the info on the board. One thought about C & R: I keep what I'm going to use and release the rest. My problem with those that don't release are the ones who take more than the legal limit. They view stocking as a free meal!
As I said, I'm glad I found this site and hope to participate often.

[Jeff Jones]

good point sidewinder. it sort of IS a free meal to most folks ( since I am not an expert and haven't researched this fact, let me say that this is purely speculation on my part.) If you keep only what you can or will use , that's all anyone can ask. I too, can't understand why some feel compelled to keep 3 or 4 limits per day ?! If I could just catch" 3 or 4 limits" I'd be happy !!! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[Hooker]

My personal thoughts on C&R is there is a time and place like a small mountain stream with natural reproduction. However, C&R is killing the Atlanta Chattahoochee. This section of the river is put and take. The DNR is doing a great job of "putting", but this C&R thing has got such a hold on everyone, that no one is taking. In this type of fishery, trout can't be stockpiled for next year. The river only carries so many, and everything else dies. Also, the larger trout are getting to be fewer and fewer because there is less to eat.

Maybe we can set up a food bank for the indigent.

Hooker

[Rod]

This topic is also one deeply knit with personal opinion. The most we can hope is to educate the masses on the pros and cons of C&R. Hooker is right, as usual--C&R has a time and place and is not for every situation. I've learned alot from this board and from my own observations on the streams I fish. I don't like to keep any (not because I'm a fish hugger, but because I rarely eat them), but for the greatest benefit for the greatest amount of folks, it is good to take half a limit or an entire limit to keep the fishery healthy (on the Hooch anyway).
How many of us have fished near helen after a weekend and find "like" 3 fish in the entire stream?????This is where C&R is useful--not because we expect the fish to reproduce up there but so you can catch fish the next time you fish the stream in question.

Fish won't get bigger unless they have a chance to grow--I think this is a universally accepted premise???
In some cases--like the marginal waters in the mountains---fish must be released in order to get a chance to grow.
On the Hooch fish must be KILLED (not a bad word here) so that a balance between food for the fish and the number of fish is obtained. Only then will fish grow to those "rewarding" sizes and not starve each other out.
I ramble--all should look to the archives---many great and enlightening posts have been rendered on this topic. God we've got great folks on this board.

[Mr T]

Sidewinder -- Good points. However, remember that if the stream is desginated C&R, you no longer have a choice of keeping or releasing. You MUST release.

I don't support C&R for that reason AND because I believe that if a fishery is in so much trouble that C&R is needed, you ought to close down the stream altogether to allow it to rebuild.

Once re-established, there are all sorts of other management tools to help maintain a workable population like: artificials only, minimum size limits, barbless hooks; limited access and, to some extent, delayed harvest.

I have reservations about delayed harvest because what you're really doing is allowing stocked fish to grow to a larger size before harvesting them. In the case of Smith's Creek, the fish are getting bigger because they're being fed, not because the stream will support them. Why not just stock larger fish to begin with and forget about delayed harvest?

One of my favorite topics...slammers do your worst (or best). (_o_)

Mr. T

[Mr T]

Hooker -- Your post struck a chord. What is the root cause of this C&R cult. It seems that those who are really caught up in it think that anyone who keeps (eats) fish is equivalent of the anti-christ. They become totally irrational and offended by anyone who suggests that there might be other solutions.

I know it's not PETA because they are totally opposed to the use of animals (or fish) for any purpose. . . especially for recreation or sport.

Could it be from the Fishing Magazines? Though most of the ones I read have had articles on both sides of the issue.

The only other source I've seen is TV where a lot of the large offshore tournaments are now practicing C&R.

I'm concerned that it may be coming from some of the more elitist flyfishing groups...those who tend to look down on any other kind of fishing or fishermen.

Some of those people seem to have the attitude that if you're not a flyfisher and don't practice C&R, you're beneath them and don't really belong to the human race. It's that kind of arrogance and ignorance that can give flyfishing a bad name.

I bumped into a guy coming out of Unicoi one time who seemed to feel that way. I didn't have my flyfishing duds on and he was dressed to the hilt with all the "right" stuff. I spoke nicely to him. He just kind of looked me over, pushed past me and went on his way without even a nod and headed for the Hootch above the old Unicoi location. I'll bet he practiced C&R, too.

Just a few thoughts. No reponse necessary.

Mr. T

[Mr T]

Rod -- You point out a perplexing problem. A big weekend on the upper Hootch, Tallulah or any of the larger and more popular rivers will, indeed, deplete that stockers that were placed the previous Friday. but if you make them C&R streams, that means you can't take any fish out. . .then you have the starvation problem.

It's my understanding that DNR stocks those streams on Monday, Wednesday and Friday during season. The fishing pressure is relatively light during the week until the hoards hit on the weekend and keep everything in sight.

However, my experience has been that, at least on the Tallulah, there are always a few of the smarter fish which escape to grow larger and holdover. There's one three-pounder on the Tallulah that has been caught three times that I know of. Twice by enlightened corn people and once by a fly fisherman. He remains in one location and now only feeds at night. I suspect there are more of those fish than we realize but you're not going to get them to feed or strike while the sun is up. And they're protected from night fishing.

I would certainly release a fish like that and expect that because he has adapted to both stream and predators and because he is fed stockers three times a week, has a chance to grow to enormous size, IF he can survive the winter non-stocking season.

Don't think the answer here is C&R. But, how about setting minimum and maximum size limits. Such as: keep as many as you want up to 12 inches to a catch limit or 6 or 8. Limit of one between 12 and 24 inches. Or C&R only for all fish over 12 inches.

This would rid the stream of the put and take stockers, hopefully with some of the larger fish doing their share, but protecting the larger brood size fish which might have an opportunity to reproduce and/or carry over at the end of the season.

You also could protect native species by making them C&R only, recognizing that they still must compete with the stockers during the stocking season.

In fishing the upper Hootch and Tallulah from one end of the season to the other, I have never seen a real insect hatch other than one midge hatch at night on the Tallulah. There just doesn't seem to be sufficient acquatic life to supprt a large fishery without stocking. If you stock, then C&R simply can't work on the stream like that. I suspect the upper Hootch is the same.

Another thought related to delayed harvest. in one sense, the seasonal streams are delayed harvest streams because you can't fish them between November and March then they're open through the season. If they're stocked (and fed) through the winter, there ought to be some larger stream-wise fish by the time the season opens. Why not eliminate the season and just make all seasonal streams delayed harvest during the old out of season period. Of course, you again have to deal with the ability of the fishery to support the stockers and feeding would probably be required. And that's an added expense.

When you really look at it, with some native exceptions, trout fishing in north Georgia is really an artificial fishery where C&R cannot work EXCEPT in some streams where native fish are the exclusive populations.

Mr. T

[Richard]

If only Erik was still around... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[KB]

First of all, any streams that receive stocking should be left out of te c&r topic.

Setting that aside, there are many strams in Georgia that support wild and native trout. Many of these streams could hold larger and more abundant trout if c&r regulations were in place. Overpopulation is a pretty weak argument in these cases.

For example, there are some strams out there that are off the beaten path that do indeed hold (only) more and larger wild and native trout. These streams get very little fishing pressure, and the anglers it attracts, probably care enough to c&r. No problems with overpopulation there. In fact its a nice healthy little ecosystem.

Take that same stream(I assure they do exist in georgia), make it accessable, put a limit of 9 trout per person per day, throw in some corn, minnows, power bait and worms, and the next thing you know the stock truck is making deliveries and everyone is bitching about how the trout are'nt as big and colorful as they used to be.

I'm I wrong?

KB

[Rod]

Len et al.,
Great string going here...
It still boils down to choice, and I must side with Len again on these grounds.
I really like the idea of closing streams for revival. What's so hard to understand about that--if the fishery is really our concern.
Rod

[Jeff Jones]

A littlr FYI
#1 Year-round streams( with a few exceptions) ARE open to night fishing.
#2 Georgia does not have a delayed harvest stream that IS NOT year-round.
#3 If a trout that is socked dies in the stream, or dies in a frying pan-what s the difference!
#4 Stocked streams( with the exception of Smiths and the like) are stocked to provide the public with trout. If stocking ends, people( even lazy ones) WILL find and eliminate the wild streams.
#5 I practice C&R in stocked streams because I want the fish to be there for the kind of people that fish them( corn,powerbait, keep 'em all for food-people.)
#6 Most people are not, contrary to their beliefs, trout anglers. They are Tallulah River, Dick's Creek, or Nimblewill Anglers. Camp and catch trout for the frying pan. A " trout angler" is interested in the art of angling, the stalk, the deception, the fight, and the protection of the resource.
#7 I have not meant to offend anyone. ( Re-read this if necessary ! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif )

[Jeff Jones]

The origins of catch and release, whether from fly-fishing. or b****fishing -
C&R was suggested and summarily accepted (by most) because most people see the ratio of anglers to fish. Some people may be blind to the fact that there are many more people fishing now ( and they are generally more skilled) than were fishing 50 yrs. ago. There are more peope on this planet period, no ? If we all fished a single stream 10 times a year , say Noontoola ( for arguments sake, since it's a 16" min.) and we each kept a limit those 10 times - you do the math. Can you say wiped out? With so many streams in the "take a limit" catagory - how can anyone be upset if C&R people want a few streams where we're sure we can go and there will be fish there to fish for ??????? I don't want every stream to be C&R 'cause I like to eat a few myself, but good grief- I wouldn't want you "eat 'em all" folks to make all streams "limit" streams either. I've noticedthe "'eat 'em " crowdis partic. angry if a stream goes C&R , al la Smith's. Why the anger ? You still have The Hooch, Nimblewill, Toccoa, Wildcat, Tallullah,Stanley,Boggs, Dicks,Coleman, Chatooga,Stamps, John's,Low gap, popcorn, Rock,Cooper's - and about 100 others !!!
I wouldn't ask for all of these to be " 'eat 'em" streams.
What it all boils down to - wild fish must be protected for there to be wild fish.
( It has been suggested that Smith's be C&R. I believe this is because some folks, (including myself ) like the idea of knowing a stream has BIG fis in it. In reality, it wouldn't work unless the supplemental feedigs went n indef. Eventually, the only good fly there would be the "pellet fly". Boring.