catch and release

[old bw]

I have been following the recent "Catch and Release" thread under General Information with interest. There was some discussion about the best methods of hook removal. What is the best handling method? Is it better to use a soft catch and release net or your hands, and why?

[Rod]

bow et al.,
I prefer, if possible, to back the hook out without touching the fish. I gave up nets a couple of years ago--after mine bit me in the back. Use barbless hooks, reach down and back it out--quick and easy. I don't recommend this for sharks and the like--I've not taken a brown with a kyped jaw, so I don't know how that would work either.

If I have to touch the fish--I always try to wet my hand before doing so, and even then try to keep the body of he fish in the water.
Rod
Releaser when not hungry

[Flyguy]

I agree with Rod here...A barbless hook is best when you are going to practice C&R. I also use the C&R tool, but remember if the fish seems to be tired when you go to release it don't just plop it back in the water give it time to catch its breath...so to say. If you have to revive a fish...here agian as Rod stated make sure you wet your hands place the fish in the water (Face pointing up stream if able) and slowly move the fish back and forth forceing water through its gills untill it seems ready to swim away.




Flyguy

[ShawnT]

Regarding the hows, I noticed that TU sold a C&R educational package for $18 or so. Is it worth it, or is this something you should learn in about 5 minutes with a guide?

Also where would you pick up objective reading material on the subject (pro and con). The thread here at NGTO that I read through at least didn't sound like a religious debate (and a lot less mentally and philosophically contorted as at ROFF).

Thanks

[NiteOwl]

Barbless, schmar-bless ! Flim flam. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif hahhaaaa


Anyone ever noticed that barbless hook coming unpinned and reattaching itself to the trout's head or back or tail? Sure you have. Barbless hooks can become dislodged several times during the fight and scratch the ju-ju b's outta a trouties mouth.


Well, at least that's the way I see it. Besides I like to catch fish instead of just having them on for a while and doing a long-range release. I have no idea why trout guys are so caught up in barbless hooks? bass? Tarpon? Catfish? Snook? Redfish? bream? Marlin? Amberjack? Stripers? Gar?

Barbless anyone?


I know, I know..... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Use what you liek I don't care, you all know that....I'd never condemn anyone for anything legal. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif I'm just bendin ears here, ya'll. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


I hink as long as you follow Rod's advice and use commen sense releasing a fish, his or her( the fish http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif ) chances of survival are really good. I do believe that trout often survive bouts with herons and other birds, larger trout, and poachin baddies, so your release is probably the least of their worries. As for a video on how to let a fish go.....man, what next?



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Owl
"A fish in the creek is worth ten in the creel" - Owl

[The Ole Man]

Did anyone notice that this thread was originally posted 2-9-99? Here it is back on the board a year later. Did someone just revive this today (Shawn T)?

[WDNFLY]

OWL ! I have to agree with you. As you all are well aware I don't keep anything, even the twigs I sometimes hook. However I am very tired of having a hok slip out in the middle of the fight or slip out and into my finger at the net. One comprimise is to mash the barb down, this still leaves a small hump that will help hold the hook in with out being a pain to remove.
I will never fish without a ney again. One evening on the "D" I got into a very nice brown and would have had to play that fish nearly to death if it hadn't been for a nice guy with a net. I have carried one since.
I leave th fish in the net and the net in the water while I remove the hook and then revive or release the fish which ever is appropriate.
OWL, aren't you proud of me. I discussed catch and release without geting my undies in a knot. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[Grizzz]

Ole Man, you are right. I think someone is just trying to stir things up again. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

But since I have not ever weighed in with my .02. Here it goes. For catch and release I too like barbless hooks. They are so much easier to get out of the fishes mouth. If you keep your line tight, most fish are not going to get off. And the few that I do lose, I dont mind. I was going to let them loose anyway. I also feel that more then half of the battle is getting them to bite. There has also been studies done that show that hooks without barbs will penetrate a fish's mouth easier. I dont know if that is also true with trout hooks, since they are of such fine wire most of the time.

That's my say.

The Grizz

[ShawnT]

"Barbless, schmar-bless"??? So is that a technical fishing term? I looked it up in my "thing-a-mabob" dictionary but couldn't find it . . . http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

I apologize, but don't have "common sense" when it comes to fishing. I have it with computers and politics (well, at least I like to think so), but don't have the "common experience" to have "common sense" in this regard. (I actually believe there is no such thing as "common sense" unless there's a "common experience", but regardless . . .)

I do wish I had even an inch of knowledge that you and everyone else on this board had regarding fishing in general, but more particularly regarding the safe release of fish.

Have to smile when I think about your comment about "what's next" with a C&R video. But the question was for a reason. I've hurt fish, I know, when I tried to release them for whatever reason. I'm in a Catch-22 (unless I misunderstood you). I'm an ignoramus because I don't know how to let a fish go without killing them. But at the same time I'm an ignoramus for trying to get some help on releasing the fish w/o killing them! I'm really hoping I misunderstood.

[ShawnT]

Well, I know I'm cringing!!! (I was hoping this one would go away . . . )

Anyway, I was ok w/ Owl's comments. I just have a pet peeve about the term "common sense" and so was probably ranting about it a little bit. (And it was a search that got me in trouble in the first place! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif )

I know very few people who fish, fewer who fly fish and fewer still who I can fish with. So I'm stuck with asking "stupid questions" or hiring guides or buying materials to educate myself. I'm sure guides, flyshops and bookstores love me -- since they can talk me into about anything. And with the nearest stream at least 2 hours away, even just hoping out of the chair and grabbing the pole isn't (always) an option.

But I'll get there. I'll probably spend a lot more money than the Owl in the process, but one way or another . . . http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ShawnT (edited 02-16-2000).]

[THE EG]

I just like to see everybody cringe when this thread pops to the top. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif Just kidding.

ShawnT,

Some where in the "articles" section or the "archives" section is a good write-up on releasing fish unharmed. Also, there have been a couple good extensive threads on properly releasing fish.

You may have misunderstood Owl's intent. He was just joking about the fact that in flyfishing you can find just about anything for sale.

[bbell]

A brief comment on barbless hooks....

I have fished barbless for five or six years. After five trips to the emergency room to remove barbed hooks, I finally figured out the solution. No one ever said that I'm a quick learner.
In my experience, barbless hooks are equal to, if not superior than, barbed hooks in overall performance.
In saltwater or bass fishing, barbless hooks
seem to penetrate the bony jaws of the fish much better. I have found that once the hook is in place, very few fish get off. The problems arise with certain species...seatrout have very weak mouths and tend to pull off a hook (like crappie) and ladyfish or tarpon have extremely bony mouths which are difficult to penetrate on the hook set. These fish usually throw the fly on the first few jumps. Barbless hooks seem superior to barbed in this situation.
In freshwater trout fishing, hooks tend to be very small and hold very well after penetration. After switching to barbless, I didn't notice any difference in fish landed.
Why did I switch? Probably because I accidently killed a wild 13 inch fish that took a hopper pattern in North Carolina. The barbed hook was very stubborn and upon removal, the fish began bleeding heavily. In this case, a barbless hook would have saved a very nice native fish.
If that wasn't enough, the 1/0 hook (still attached to a 3 pound speckled trout) that was buried under my pinkie fingernail on a Florida beach convinced me.
I recommend going barbless because sooner or later, it will be worth it!

[Jimmy Harris]

Actually, the video on releasing trout is fairly good. We have a copy at Unicoi Outfitters; everyone is welcome to come by and watch it. It only lasts 5 minutes. To tell you the truth, I think a lot of trout fishermen could stand some education in this area. We see a lot of fishermen, many who are really good fly fishermen. A substantial number of these folks, even the good ones, need to do a better job releasing the fish. Can't tell you how often we see someone dragging a fish up on a sand bar, or gripping one by the lower jaw to lift it out of the water, or squeezing it so tightly its eyes are bulging out. With largemouth bass this is okay; not so with trout. Also, for what it's worth, we feel that barbless hooks (or those with the barb mashed down) do cause less damage to the fish. For a demonstration, try sinking a barbed size 18 hook into your hand (or your lip if you really want to get the full effect) until the barb is beneath the skin. Now try removing it without taking a hunk of meat with it. Next try the same experiment with a hook on which the barb has been mashed down. You'll be surprised how well it holds! However, it can be removed with less trauma to your epidermis. Now, assume you are a rainbow trout in a catch and release stream. How often can you have that hunk of meat pulled out of your mouth before some serious health problems are incurred? Just something to ponder.

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Uh,..... no thanks Jimmy. I'll take your word for it.

I think I'm going to faint.

[NiteOwl]

As a spokesperson for PETA, I would like to say that I think barbless is great. WHy, I think the only logical next step is to clip the hook off the fly altogether - after all, fooling them into biting the silly thing is the goal, isn't it?


Of course I'm being silly, but somehow I can't help thinking how fishing has become some sort of religionwhere we worship these things that swim in the creek. Now, Jimmy runs a business based on catch and release fishing, and I def. see the point in fishing barbless there. Dukes and Water's have barbless rules and I have no problem with that either. However, I want to catch the trout. That is my goal. I release him so that others can catch him again. How many others? I don't know. Does a single puncture wound cause less potential for infection or disease than a bigger wound? (I don't know, although I suppose that it does.) I admire anyone that can land ten fish out of thiry on barbless hooks. I've seen it done, but can't seem to do it myself. THe few times I have managed it, I winched the fish in like I was pulling a buzzbait for bass. Skated him over to me, to be exact. Somehow it wasn't as fun as watching him jump and run(without fear of losing him). Now, some of you might think that first little jest about the PETA folks was just plain absurd. Well, I think it's more along the lines of how they will make sportsman shoot themselves in the proverbial foot.

PETA folk: You say you want to protect the trout, right?
ANGLER: WEll, yeah.
PETA folk: You say you just want to fool them into bitiing, and not cause them any harm, right?
ANGLER: Well, I guess...
PETS folk: Well, then why use a hook at all. You can "fish" for them and see them strike and count that as a keeper and never harm the poor fish or make him feel ashamed that he was tricked.
ANGLER: But, but,but,but.....

Just something else to ponder and def. just my personal opinion. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Owl
who thinks smaking a trout with a rock is ok. They'd just be tortured by the campfire, anyway. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[Tom]

I mash the barbs down on all flies that I tie. Have never purchased the barbless hooks. Still have a few barbed hooks but usually mash them down on stream. I don't believe I have lost many fish over the years due to a barbless hook. Now, slack in the line is another thing....
Have never noticed that the fly moves about once taken by the trout...it may happen, just never noticed it.
If a trout is very colorful, full bodied and of a bragging length, I like to slip the soft net under him, keeping him in the water for observation. And speaking of nets, I really have enjoyed using that magnetic release...keeps the net up out of the way and snags on the brush infrequently. Gotta go. Paintings and display packed, headed for the Fly Fishing Show in Charlotte. Tight Lines, Tom
And Jimmy, boy that hurt!

[JOHNKIES]

Barbed and Barbless. I have not been able to find the source document, but I do remember reading a few years ago that barbs were invented to keep the bait from getting off the hook too easily. Picture a nice juicy nightcrawler staying on a barbless hook.

For my own selfish purposes, I use only barbless hooks as they are much easier to remove from my hide, hair and clothing, as well as from those unfortunate enough to be in range of my cast. With one hook type, I also never have to be concerned with which stream I am on and what the barbed / barbless rules are. So far as the ratio of fish hooked and landed, I can tell no real difference, and that includes trout as well as several warm water species.

No credo here - just a comment. JCK

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[Rod]

Owliepooh!
Mr T., got a lot of goat about a year ago when he suggested that true conservation would be to not fish at all....(citing mortality rates of "unharmed," released fish and the like.....

Got me laughing this morning, thanks NO.

And once again, barbless hooks do not loose more fish that barbed hooks! Poor technique however, will loose more fish than proper.

[Chris England]

uh oh...

[NiteOwl]

......and I suppose that this "poor tec-nee-Q", would be anything other thanholding the rod high, winching the fish in 100 miles an hour, and trying not to let him jump or shake or run or otherwise be part of the fight?
Someone's next statement may be that they have fish jump and shake and that they still don't lose them. Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again....when is someone going to show me how this is done? I'm ready and willing to learn how to keep every fish on the hook until I decide to release him. For some reason, "barbless people" are very vocal and adament about why they use them. "Barbed people" are apparently afraid that they'll be accused of not being able to fish well enough to use barbless hooks, so they remain silent. Well, I guess I see their point then, don't you?


BTW - where can I find a copy of the "Declaration of the COrrect Techinques to use while Trout Fishing"? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


and another thing while I'm going.......if someone here at NGTO wants to tell someone else that they got someone going really good, why don't you just say it. I can read, contrary to popular myth and current urban legends to the contrary. Na na na na nah.

[NiteOwl]

PS. lest someone misunderstand.......don't take me so seriously this year. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Owl
who cannot help debating even if it is hopeless.....

[The Ole Man]

ShawnT
See what I mean?

[fishmonger]

Owl,
Touchy, touchy, touchy. I also always fish barbless, after being convinced by a guide (Chris Scalley) that this will help reduce fish mortality. I can't honest say that I've never lost a fish because of a barbless hook, and you can't say that you always land every fish because of barbed hooks. The little devils, sometimes they just get away. I know that you have looked "up close and personal" at many trout, so why the insistance on releasing every one only when you have personally removed the hook. So some get away before you can count their spots, big deal. And yes, it is a heartbreaker to lose that hard to find lunker that you have been working so hard to hook. But, it just makes it that much sweeter when you do bring a large fish to hand. Do you believe in Kharma? Maybe if you fished barbless, you would hook more big'uns. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

PS: Your package is on the way.

Fishmonger

[Rod]

Haven't had much pepper on here in a while...thanks owl!

BTW, I loose as many fish as the next guy...I just don't think it has anything to do with an extra piece of metal.

[ShawnT]

Ouch, Ole Man. Geez, all I wanted to know was whether or not I should spend $20 on a video and where to find a layman's guide to C&R and other strategies for protecting certain populations of fish!

I would like to take up Jimmy on his offer to view the video if I can ever escape Columbus and get up north.

I did learn 2 things -- never respond to a search (or quadruple check the date and then check it again) and that barb vs. barbless can be just as controversial as C&R.

I took fishing up to relax! If I wanted to get this worked up, I'd go back to watching the presidential debates! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[troutabout]

Thanx Fishmonger - you just gave me the name for a new fly pattern I'm trying. Using my Stone Mountain accent it'll be called the "Karma Charma".

[JOHNKIES]

Owl, chill out. Your opinions and expertise are a terrific source of information for everyone on the board. But just because someone has a different viewpoint does not mean they disapprove of your viewpoint. To wit, I use barbless exclusively for personal reasons. If you used barbed hooks, that's okay by me, and I would hope for everyone else. We all have to abide by special reg streams, of course, but there is no one, single, absolutly "right" way to fish. Anybody who thinks their way is the only way really is a snob. John Kies

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[NiteOwl]

Wow, you guys that maybe don't remember the old debates on this really missed some "hot stuff". I can't chill out. I haven't even made it to "worked up" yet! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif I hate to say it, but I think we've all mellowed. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif What's up with that!? hahaha http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
I wouldn't dream of suggesting an "experiment" to see who keeps more fish on the hook! ( Now, you wanna see some heat? That'd probably bring all the animals out to play! haha )
However, I will say ( AGAIN ) that I admire you guys that catch fish with barbless hooks. However, I think the techniques used to land fish by fishers of barbless hooks, are developed because the hook doesn't hold the trout as well as a barbed hook. Barbs may have been invented to hold on bait, but then , why when flies and other artificals were made, didn't they leave off the barbs( being as there was no bait to be held on the hook)? Someone knew that barbs hold the hook in to the fish.


I dunno....it's all giving me a headache....and you guys too I'm sure.
I should have just clicked to the next subject in the begginning.......sorry all. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[fishmonger]

No need for anybody here to be sorry about expressing thier opinion, or for razzing another member. This is one reason why I quit lurking and started posting, a little spicy conversation now and then is good for the soul, and fun.

Especially when its at Owl's expense. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

Fishmonger

[rollcast]

Owl said:
"However, I will say ( AGAIN ) that I admire you guys that catch fish with barbless hooks. However, I think the techniques used to land fish by fishers of barbless hooks, are developed because the hook doesn't hold the trout as well as a barbed hook. Barbs may have been invented to hold on bait, but then ,why when flies and other artificals were made, didn't they leave off the barbs(
being as there was no bait to be held on the hook)? Someone knew that barbs hold the hook in to the fish."

Sorry to tell you this, but barbs remain because they provide a purchase point for the bending jig. The barb helps hold the hook in position so that it can be bent to the proper shape. It's also the reason given why barbless hooks cost more than barbed, in case , you might have been wondering.

If you flyfish, it makes sense to go barbless for self protection. Enough said. Flyfish long enough and the logic of the barbless hook will eventually make its point http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Regards, DA

[Rod]

That may be the most concise/accurate argument for barbless fishing I have ever read/heard. Excellent David!

[Chris England]

Owl, evidently Rod doesn't believe you can read either... ROTFLMFAO ;)

[NiteOwl]

Oh well, it's my lot in life. I have been fishing since I was 6( I'm now 30 ) and have never put a hook in myself or anyone else past the barb. I know by sharing this I'm just asking for it! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif Maybe you guys are just klutzy? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif hehehe


Had a CPR class today at work that made me think seriously about using barbless hooks. No sense having to wear a #14 EHC around all day in one's ear!
Boy, am I gonna miss all those fish being caught. I guess I can learn to live with long distance releases if it's that much safer. Well, ......maybe.


Owl
I'll try anything once or twice or maybe even three times....

Although,..................... it's funny how when discussion arises on this subject and someone(usually me), brings up wanting to learn how to use them and not lose a high percentage of fish, and how I suppose that everyone loses a few fish when fishing barbless( if he\she doesn't mind telling everyone), the discussion somehow always turns away from " landing percentage " and toward safty. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif But the point here is deviled ham, and that can't be the last straw with regard to innocent tulip farming, you know?


http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by NiteOwl (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Drifter]

Drifter ducks and dodges miscellaneous projectiles and reluctantly types:

If barbless hooks are as effective as barbed hooks, and are beneficial to the fish, why don't tarpon anglers fish barbless?

....or bass fisherman?

My guess is the trout is a more delicate fish and can't stand the trauma of a torn lip. I believe the tarpon and bass have tougher mouths than trout.

Drifter

[FairWeatherFisherman]

No projectiles, just opinion.
I think that regardless of the type of fish, my hook set efficiency is improved by barbless hooks. There is just less hook there to penetrate the fishes mouth. In my experience a good hookset - defined as one that gets the point of the hook driven into the fishes mouth so that it is the bend of the hook that is holding the fish - is the most important predictor of whether I will be able to land the fish or not. The second most important aspect is keeping steady pressure on the fish.

Lots of times when I try to get a fish off the hook, I have trouble because of the barb. Clearly if you get the hook in past the barb, the barb will help keep the fish on. Owl saw me loose a pretty nice Brookie on the Nantahala last fall. I botched that one by not keeping steady pressure on the fish. I was using barbed hooks at the time so it is also possible that I didn't successfully get the barb through the fishes jaw to get any benefit from it.

[THE EG]

Boy, I hope I didn't restart this. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif I just didn't want ShawnT thinking he was an ignoramus.

Owl,

I agree with your points and will defend them to the death as long as they are legal (recognize that as the dramatic figure of speech that it is). Having said that, I have been debarbing the flies I tie simply because those big black woolly buggers occasionally seem to come whipping awful close to my head. Optical illusion you say. You haven't seen me cast I say.

[BT]

When you get right down to the nitty gritty this is almost too simple, If you prefer barbed hooks and don't have any trouble releasing your fish then by all means use them. Myself I debarb everything even my popping bugs. Hell I won't even let my neighbor in the yard (BARBra). It's sort of like a hot fly that everyones using if you don't have confindense in it chances are you won't be very successful with it, at least until you do start to catch some fish with it.

Just one more humble opinion, (JOMHO)


------------------
May your lines be tight
and your fish be bright.

Bud

[Rod]

Can tell by the tone of these posts that the fishin' is fixin to be good all around GA. Does this board rule or what.

Owl, I love you man!

[NiteOwl]

Uh.....Rod, I thought we had an agreement.... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif hahahaha

Well, I must say that this IS one of the more pleasnt talks on this issue since I've been here( over a year now). Glad to see I've finally come at least half-way to my senses huh? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif WEll, half-way is better than nuttin! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

So, who wants to teach me how to keep the line tight and catch em barbless.........once I learn, this is pretty much a dead subject. But I must admit, I won't believe it til it works for me.


SHow-me-state-Owl

[KB]

Owlie,
We're still on for opening day arn't we?
That Orvis rod will know nothin but barbless before summer gets here. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif