This just in !

[The Owl]

From the ENN ( Environmental News Network) website -


<<<Fund for Animals Asks Nation's Sports Media to Stop Promoting Hunting


From The Fund for Animals
Wednesday, July 11, 2001

SILVER SPRING, MD — The Fund for Animals, a national animal protection group founded in 1967 by bestselling author and humanitarian Cleveland Amory, has sent an open letter to the editors of more than 2,000 newspapers asking them to stop promoting hunting and fur trapping in the outdoor columns that appear in most sports sections. A similar letter went to the presidents of sports cable channels ESPN and ComCast Sports Net, asking them to cancel their hunting programs.
Quoting Marv Levy, legendary former head coach of the Buffalo Bills, who said, "I don't consider hunting a sport; I consider it murder," the letter by Fund for Animals program coordinator Norm Phelps pointed out that in genuine sports all of the competitors are willing participants, the competition is roughly equal, the stakes are the same for both sides, and everyone lives to play another day. Phelps, a former hunter, wrote in the letter, "While the hunter is armed with a lethal long-range weapon, either a firearm or a bow, the animal's only hope is to be lucky enough to escape. Can you image a hockey game in which only one team carried sticks?"

Phelps further wrote, "People who do to dogs and cats what hunters do to deer, geese, doves, and squirrels are prosecuted for animal cruelty, referred for psychiatric evaluation, or both. But animals who live in the wild are just as capable of suffering fear and pain as our companion animals. What is cruel to one is cruel to the other. Hunting is legalized cruelty to animals."

Heidi Prescott, national director of The Fund for Animals, noted that sport hunting in the United States has been declining for the past quarter century. "America's values are changing," she said. "Today, only a tiny fraction of Americans hunt. We're maturing as a society, and The Fund for Animals is calling on America's sports media to reflect that change."

Michael Markarian, The Fund's executive vice president, added that, "Hunting teaches kids that it's OK to terrorize and kill for fun. At a time when violence in our schools is a national epidemic, that's the wrong message for America's sports media to be sending."
>>>


More examples of scary stuff to come. Hey, I aim to please! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

[The Owl]

http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/graphics/forests/worldmap.gif

The red is the earth's " already destroyed ancient forests"....green is the 20% that's left.....


well...........we're almost there, I guess. Then we can start logging the new trees !

[The Owl]

...and from the Sierra Club, an environmental activist.......er........political....club -

<<<Call your Congressperson and tell them that you want them to support H.R. 2356, the Shays-Meehan Campaign Finance Reform bill for cleaner elections and a cleaner environment. >>>

Cleaner elections? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[The Owl]

last one.....this one from Sierra Club's W watch....


<<<When couples abroad have access to comprehensive family planning services – as most Americans do – they frequently choose to have smaller, healthier families. In turn, this eases the demand for water and arable land, preserves biodiversity and vital habitat, and limits pollution – improving the prospects for a healthy environment.
>>>

As a living, breathing, adopted, non-aborted human, I'm deeply offended by this non-sense. Also, in closing I'd like to say that in my travels around the eco-web, I have seen report after contradicting report on dozens of issues. Truly amazing. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[BLACK KNIGHT]

I never liked the Bills anyway.

[This message has been edited by BLACK KNIGHT (edited 07-12-2001).]

[DeBacker]

I still love the Bills.

Owl,
How did the smaller family thing offend you? Said nothing about abortion. Just planning to have less children. While I think the quote has everything wrong, I certainly wouldn't find it offensive.

Funny too, I never find any contradictory evidence or twisting of facts on conservative websites. And why is it that You like to pretend there are no environmental problems? If we didn't cut down so much of the old growth forest, this state would have a lot more brookies.

Jason

[edwin]

Down with the Fund for Animals, or whatever, I like the bumper sticker

"I like animanls. They taste good!"

Absolutely hilarious.

The notion that hunting promotes violence is absolutely absurd. Personally, I think taking a child (got to be old enough first) hunting is one of the most responsible things one can do. It teaches gun safety, allows parents to spend time with their kids, and promotes stewardship for the outdoors.

Owl, please be advised that groups that say stuff like this are not normal or the mainstream environmentalists. That'd be like saying McVeigh and his militia groups are mainstream republicans.

Tally-HO!

Edwin

[Grady]

Speaking of conservatives twisting facts and being out of the mainstream.... http://www.fair.org/press-releases/limbaugh-debates-reality.html

[This message has been edited by Grady (edited 07-12-2001).]

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Very good point edwin. I think those most exposed to weapons are more likely to show the utmost respect to the weapon and care in its handling.

[Tom]

Thanks for the web site, Grady. Most interesting. If it is truly dedicated to "fair and accurate" reporting in the media it should prove helpful when trying to balance all the gobbledegook we are overwhelmed with in both the conservative and liberal media. Tight Lines, Tom

[Campcook]

Environmental problems? compared to what? the last 1000 of the total 4.5 billion years of the earths age? You've got to be kidding. The great flood, The 4 different ice ages, the global warming that killed the giant lizzards? What factory emissions and green house gasses caused the earths temp to rise then? That enviro-wacko crap is all political. You need to think for yourself more and let the real facts influance your thought process instead of the left wing, vote hungry drivel... You have trout, lots of them, everywhere. You have deer and dogs and everything else, lions, tigers, and five million species of animals and fish yet to be identified in millions of acres of forrests and oceans. If they all die in the next ten million years...the earth will replenish itself just like it has done thousands of times, over the last billion years. You and your policies dont do anything to serve the long run..you can't even fathom 1 billion years. The future is a cycle whats - green becomes brown and dies and then the earth and god replenish everything over and over and over again. Our bodies are all destined to be fossils in the great geologic time line.

Your environmentalism is selfishness. YOU want the trees, and the beavers and everything else to be around for YOUR enjoyment. You could care less about the animals really, otherwise you would be so overwhelmed with grief that you would shrival and die. Billions of animals die daily, How can you stand to live? Its all BS. Its something we like vs. something you dont - tough-sh.t! Today we have the upper hand and our laws let us do what we enjoy, maybe in the future our laws will be influenced by you and we wont be able to do what we want. But in the long run not one animal will be spared, not even you. Another ice age, volcanic eruption of giant proportions or even an asteroid will see to that... see you at camp, I'll have dove gravy over grilled rabbit, with a side of vennison sausage waiting for you...*grin*

Campcook

[This message has been edited by Campcook (edited 07-12-2001).]

[edwin]

Campcook,

My, my, such bitterness http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif Seriously though, who are those words directed at? That's some pretty harsh stuff, man. No one on this thread that I am aware of slighted our ability to harvest and kill animals. That's what they were given to us for, for our dominion. However, everything that I have learned (both Christian and secular teaching) over years of being a child and now a parent myself is that while we have dominion over the animals, etc., we also have a responsibility to be good stewards. This is not selfishness. It is called personal accountability and following God's teachings.

Also, unless we bring it upon ourselves, we and everything else will not be destroyed by some event. That's part of God's covenant with us.

These are some really disturbing statements. Maybe you can explain.

[Campcook]

My comments are not really directed to any one. They are there to incite some emotional thought by anyone who may take a position either for or against. I tried to leave God out of it, by saying our bodies are fosils in the geologic time line. The soul and gods covenants, IMHO are better left to a different topic..

Hungry Regards...Campcook

[The Owl]

Population Control = family planning = abortion.

Hellooooo? Grab some java or whatever wakes ya up and open them eyes. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Edwin,
I don't remeber sayign that we didn't have a few nuts running around the conservative side of things - again Neal Boortz...he's as close to a little nutty as I can think of, and I'm sure he'd probably admit it. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

However, I think Campie is right on if we choose to believe what the left tells us.
I mean, everyone believes in evolution right? Campcook, also, you're right about the caring for animals thing.....I've never heard PETA campaign for moths or ants or beetles....but I guess that's coming! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Grady - thanks for another example of left-wing , blah, blah, blah, blah...same ole same ole, can't verify any of it, baloney. It was a riot.....and the fact that the book quoted is pretty old and facts change - well, that's one of those things that we've come to love about you guys. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
Also, that site looked TOTALLY unbiased....I mean even the title shows how unbiased it really is, doesn't it. Yeah.....right. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
Good one. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Well, let's not forget, after all this veering hither and yon, that PETA wants our flyrods, Sierra CLub and Wilderness SOciety wants our forests(ot be off limits to us all) and Daschle wants our souls. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif hahaha

I feel a tide of sensible thinking building......... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif......and we're sitting in a bay full of hammerheads, just waiting for that perfect wave ! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Owl
Save the planet - bury your car

[The Owl]

I told you it was a RIOT. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif


I dug about two minutes to find this among the FAIR website explaining FAIR's reason for being......


geeezzz...... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


<<<"......All of us who founded FAIR have media backgrounds. Our sympathies are with the working press. We do not view reporters, editors and producers as our enemy. Nor do we hunt for conspiracies. The villain we see is not a person or group, but a historical trend: the increasing concentration of the U.S. media in fewer and fewer corporate hands.

FAIR was launched in mid-1986 at a time when the major media were bending distinctly rightward......" >>>

down with big tobacco, big microsoft http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif, big beer, and big media, now? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Ohhhhhhhhhh.........def. unbiased reporting there....


Thanks again. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

OWl

[edwin]

Owl,

First of all, I don't support the Sierra Club or their position on advocating population control. That being said, family planning does not always = abortion. That's just plain wrong. Even conservatives back "family planning" either by contraception or abstinence, with many preaching abstinence, which is good.

Second, if you believe everything Rush says, all I have to say is WOW! Rush is an entertainer, not a source of inforamation. I note that it is unbelievable sad that Justice Clarence Thomas listens to Rush religiously.

Third, actually a majority of the population does not believe in evolution, under Darwin's theory. I saw that poll run a year or two ago.

Fourth, if you accept your theory and campcook's theory, why should we do anything? Seriously? You haven't offered one suggestion as to what you would do to fix some of our envir. problems. Maybe you don't think we have any. I am not flaming you I just don't understand.

Campcook,

You brought religion up, so I followed. I will leave it out of this discussion, if you'd like. Still, though, you didn't talk about stewardship. Is that bad? If not, what is your idea of protecting the environment? Maybe it doesn't need protecting at all.

[duluthgator]

"Population Control = family planning = abortion"

I must say that this is the most assinine comment I have read on here. My wife and I planned 2 children and we have those 2, a 16 year old and a 12 year old. We also have an active sex life. and GUESS WHAT? She has never had an abortion. How can you make a statement like that and really believe it. Puts all these trout regulation threads in a little better light.

OWL, ever hear of contraceptives? And not just birth control pills but CONDOMS, diaphraphms, etc? Are you calling the use of contraceptives, abortion?

My wife and I are big on "family planning." And we practice it. And she never has had an abortion. Guess we were just lucky!

Unreal, simply unreal.



[This message has been edited by duluthgator (edited 07-12-2001).]

[The Owl]

Dear Edwin,
There was a TON of sarcasm in my last post that you missed. Reread and think sarcastically. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


Dear DG,
I'm shocked. You seem to have misinterpreted my statement. The " family planning" that you speak of is not, in any way, shape or form, the Family Planning that extremist environmentalists have in mind. Did you know that the goal is to have the whole world subjected to the system in place in China? Are you familiar with the practice in China or killing(aborting) baby girls, when the family already has one girl, in hopes that they can have a boy? Are yo uunaware that in China, a family may have only two children( or at least it used to be that way.can't imagine it's changed much)?
To you both -

As for Rush Limbaugh, you're not the first liberal-minded individual that I've heard today( believe it or not) say that he's just for entertainment purposes.
Maybe you should listen to him for a month, and then tell me what his show is about. If you still think, after a month( or even a week) that he's there to entertain( well, I suppose he is entertaining as well as informative, enlightning, and intelligent)then I'm afraid there's no hope that you'll ever see " The way things ought to be " . http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

owl
Rush is Right.
( and he says what I'm already thinking, almost all the time)


You're putting words in my mouth. Do I have to show you which ones?

I never said always. Nice twist.
However, family planning, and family planning centers have traditionally been used to discuss with women the options they have. Alot of those women are NOT married, not responsible, and not ready to deal with a child. What then, do you think they offer them? Adoption? Again.........yeah, right.



[This message has been edited by The Owl (edited 07-12-2001).]

[The Owl]

It's one child, not two.....

This from Life Coalition International website.....

This material is NOT for the squeamish, nor is it for those who can't bare to face the truth abotu abortion......


notice the use of the term, "family planning".
This is waht I was posting about.....


<<<"One-Child Population Control Policy" of Communist China
* Initiated In 1979

* One child per couple

* All pregnancies must be authorized.

* Birth quotas (allowed numbers) are determined to attain the population targets (goals).

* Women are required to obtain a birth coupon before conceiving a child.

* Menstrual cycles are publicly monitored.

* Pelvic examinations are performed on all those suspected of being pregnant.

* All unauthorized pregnancies are terminated by abortion when detected regardless of stage of pregnancy. Use of forceps to crush the baby's skull or injecting pure formaldehyde into the soft cap of baby's head during or upon birth are means for "aborting" fully developed babies. Drowning or Smothering occurs in rural areas.

* Mandatory IUD insertion in women with one child. A one size large steel "O" ring IUD is used. Removal is difficult and X ray detection is possible. Other type IUDs are banned.

* Mandatory sterilization of couples with two or more children (November 1982 official circular of the Party Central Committee and the State Council).

* High rate of infanticide and abandonment of girl babies.

In accordance with Chinese tradition, daughters join the families of their husbands upon marriage and are seldom able to offer support or care for their parents in old age. By 1990 thousands of ultrasound machines were being imported to China. Domestic factories in China began manufacturing at the rate of 10,000 a year. In 1993 authorities banned the use of ultrasound for the purpose of sex selection, but the ban seems to be virtually unenforceable. Reports of sex ratios at birth for some areas has been 300 males to 100 females. A 1991 article in a Shanghai journal warned that if the sex ratios continued to rise, by the end of the century China would have an army of bachelors numbering some 70 million strong.

Official data on abortions show the annual total number of abortions increased between 1985 and 1990. Official data on birth control surgeries after 1990 are not available.

In 1983, the all-time peak year, family planning work teams carried out 21 million sterilizations, 18 million IUD insertions, and 14 million abortions (79 percent of the 21 million sterilization performed were performed on women).

More than half a billion birth control surgeries were performed between 1971 and 1990 (94 percent were performed on women). The Chinese government has conducted a highly coercive family planning program for 25 years.

Coercion, Punishment and Tactics

* Women who resist abortions for unauthorized pregnancies are harassed, visited repeatedly, and sometimes held by family planning workers until they comply.

* Night raids have occurred to capture women hiding or trying to flee from the birth planning workers.

* Extreme fines are given for unauthorized births often exceeding a family's total income.

* Illegal children (unauthorized births) are not entered on population register so the child receives no medical benefits, no grain rations, no opportunity to attend school, and no chance for employment.

* A "responsibility system" was instituted in 1961 for management of family planning targets. National targets are broken down into specific targets for the provinces.

* Provincial governors are required to sign contracts with central authorities to fulfill provincial population targets. Each level of authority signs with lower authority. In the late 1980's central authorities added a policy under which a leader who fails to meet his family planning targets is considered a failure and is penalized accordingly. Penalties include loss of bonuses, promotions and even their jobs.

* Since the 1980's the provinces have been encouraged to set up "qualified birth control villages." Couples eligible to have children under family planning regulations may only do so if no one in the village has an unauthorized pregnancy or birth.

* Lack of results is taken as proof the locals neglected to "strengthen their leadership" over family planning work.

* Washington Post described house smashing and high forced sterilization rates in 1991 and 1992.

* April 1993 - New York Times reports punishment by severe fines, confiscation of property, smashed houses, and physical beatings.
>>>

I have no idea how old this website is and I will admit it's the first time I've seen it. As drifter would say Ymmv, but I believe it's probably accurate.....but if ya really wanna find out, go look for yourselves....things are probably worse by now. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/frown.gif

[duluthgator]

<<<When couples abroad have access to comprehensive family planning services – as most Americans do – they frequently choose to have smaller, healthier families. In turn, this eases the demand for water and arable land, preserves biodiversity and vital habitat, and limits pollution – improving the prospects for a healthy environment.
>>>

That was the statement you objected to. It says nothing about China and refers to the family planning practices of AMERICANS, not the Chinese. How did China get into this discussion. I seriously DO NOT BELIEVE that the Sierra Club is promoting the Chinese method of family planning. I think they are saying the rest of the world should follow the practices of Americans.

Concerning Rush, I never metioned him. But since you did, I agree with a lot of what Rush says, but not 100%. While I supported Bush I get sick of Rush being such a cheerleader. There are some things I wish Bush would do and the first is to REDUCE the size of government. I would say that Neal Boortz and his Libertarian line of thinking is more to my liking.

[This message has been edited by duluthgator (edited 07-12-2001).]

[The Owl]

<<<<<<When couples abroad have access to comprehensive family planning services – as most Americans do – they frequently choose to have smaller, healthier families. In turn, this eases the demand for water and arable land, preserves biodiversity and vital habitat, and limits pollution – improving the prospects for a healthy environment.
>>>
That was the statement you objected to. It says nothing about China and refers to the family planning practices of AMERICANS, not the Chinese. How did China get into this discussion.>>>


http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Whew, all this copying an dpasting is making me dizzy. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif


OK, so what do I say when you accuse me of not knowing what the pill is?

I was making an attmept to enlighten you as to what the term " family planning" actually means as used by the enviro-extremist crowd.
Are you pretending not to get it?

Owl

I agree with boortz alot, don't get me wrong, but as was stated before, there needs to be, at least in some peoples minds, at least a sprinkling of law and order....you know, there's a stop sign at every 4way you drive up to....why? Because there are people out there that couldn't figure out that yo ustop at every one of them without the signs being there! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif LOL.

You misunderstood my use of " family planning" - that's how China got in there.

I win. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

( Oh geeeesh, I'm not being obnoxious....I'm trying to be funny with that! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif )


Owl

[duluthgator]

Well that is your idea of family planning but I don't think that is what the Sierra Club is saying. They never mentioned China, you did. I think you interpreted their intentions wrong.

[The Owl]

Oh man. DG..........oh man.

I give up.


PS - the Rush thing was for ole Edwin, not you - just fyi that I forgot to add.

[duluthgator]

OK. Here are the facts regarding the Sierra Club on "Family Planning." Please do not take this as an endorsement of the Sierra Club as they have many positions I disagree with.

Go to http://www.sierraclub.org/population/overview.asp to see there position on Global Population. Read the 1st and 2nd paragraphs. They support an organization named the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) .

Now go to http://www.unfpa.org/about/faq.htm#abortion for that organizations FAQs. Please read FAQ #2.

OTOH, I know the Sierra Club does have a policy of supporting abortion, I really don't think they are saying we should go to government control of family planning as the chinese have. While I DO NOT support abortion, I cannot get pregnant. That is one area in which Boortz makes a lot of sense. he will not let guys call and talk about abortion. However, that is a little short-sighted in thatI can help someone become pregnant. It is through education in "family planning" that people become more responsible citizens.

In conclusion, I do not think any government should tell anyone they should just have 2 children or whatever. I advocate education as a means of making everyone "more responsible citizens."

[This message has been edited by duluthgator (edited 07-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by duluthgator (edited 07-12-2001).]

[The Owl]

And THIS type of garbage you believe? Like I was saying....I give up. I do have it right.
It amazes me that people( like that webpage) can merely say " Oh no, we're not for that!" and get away with it. I wonder how many abortions they do advise, on an individual basis.....I've already shown you how some countries feel about it, and this garbage from the World Health Org. - pleeeeeeease.
It sounds like so much liberal goobldegook.


Right after that, there appears this -


How does emergency contraception work?
"According to the World Health Organization, emergency contraceptives do not interrupt pregnancy but rather prevent it, and thus their use is not a form of abortion.Women have the right to information and services on emergency contraception just as with all other safe and effective methods of family planning."

If you really read this - you see where they stand. Do you really think that " all other safe and efective methods of family planning" excludes abortion?


I'm off this...I can't explain it any better.
You tell me I'm wrong again, and then let's talk about fishing, ok?

Owl Out

[duluthgator]

Please answer just one thing. In a post above you said "Did you know that the goal is to have the whole world subjected to the system in place in China?"

Where do you get your information that says the Sierra Club wants the "whole world" subjected to the system in place in China?

This sounds so much like the people who warn us about the "Trilateral Commission" and have shelters in the mountains with a years supply of food.

I am VERY conservative and I have voted republican every election since I became old enough to vote for Nixon, but the "FAR RIGHT" scares me every bit as much as the "FAR LEFT."

[DeBacker]

CC,
Of course caring for the environment is selfish. Why not, nothing wrong with that.
Anyway, I think you can easily look around Atlanta and see plenty of things to fix with the environment.(and this is my point of contention with Owl saying we should give up our freedom to keep fish, but not our drive a gas guzzeler(not that I think we should, but do think he is contradictory)) We do have some serious problems(worse, I think then a couple poor trout streams): the hooch almost being closed because of the bacteria, high school sports teams not being able to practive til after 9pm in August and early September(and kids that have died from playing earlier), and a half hour of jogging in Atlanta doing the same damage to your lungs as a whole pack of cigarettes. I would say we could improve things.

DG,
You can always vote libertarian. I sid ewith them very much and was in your positon before- scared of either voting with these enviro-welfare-big gov't nuts or these religious-moralpreaching- big gov't nuts.

Jason

[Speck]

"What is UNFPA's goal?
UNFPA stands for promoting the right of all individuals to develop to their fullest potential. To exercise this right, all people, especially women, need access to information and services on reproductive health, including family planning and sexual health, to enable them to make informed and voluntary choices and decisions. Achieving this goal is central to the work of UNFPA."

To quote J.Q. Higgins from "Magnum, P.I.", Oh, my God. What in the hell do you think "reproductive health" and "voluntary choices" mean if not abortion? If you kept up with the UN at all, you'd know that the UNFPA is one of the most pro-abortion organizations on the planet.
Get real.

I don't like discussing politics here any more than anyone else, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and read this drivel without printing a little truth and reason to go with it.




------------------
Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[Tom]

Man, has this thread gone to hell in a hand basket!

[Grady]

Owl,

Just to choose one example, which parts of the following would you call biased reporting? LIMBAUGH: On Iran-Contra special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh: "This Walsh story basically is, we just spent seven years and $40 million looking for any criminal activity on the part of anybody in the Reagan administration, and guess what? We couldn't find any. These guys didn't do anything, but we wish they had so that we could nail them. So instead, we're just going to say, 'Gosh, these are rotten guys.' They have absolutely no evidence. There is not one indictment. There is not one charge." (TV show, 1/19/94)

REALITY:Walsh won indictments against 14 people in connection with the Iran-Contra scandal including leading Reagan administration officials like former Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger and former national security advisers Robert McFarlane and John Poindexter. Of the 14, 11 were convicted or pleaded guilty. (Two convictions were later overturned on technicalities--including that of occasional Limbaugh substitute Oliver North.)

[The Ole Man]

I would have to say that Americas Family Planning efforts were totally wiped out by the admission of 10 MILLION legal aliens in the decade of the 90's (and illegals added millions more). The largest influx since 1900. We traded natural born Americans for foreign born nationals. Oh yeah, we did a great job in reducing the pressure on water, air, arable land and improving the outlook for a better environment. Yes-every country should follow our lead! What a joke.

[FlygURL]

Tell them Tom, this thread is absolutely out of line for a conservation forum.

[Tom]

Yeah, Ole Man, like considering whether or not to issue driving licenses to illegal aliens. How about illegal bank robbers. Duh! Tight Lines, Tom

[BLACK KNIGHT]

For the record, I am 100% opposed to trout of any species or nationality practicing family planning. If population control is a concern, the bigger ones should eat the smaller ones.

[vonchim]

I agree with black knight

[GregLS]

Amen Jack!

Is this NGTO's version of "The View"!?


Without the inflection of the storyteller the reader almost always misses the interpretation intended for the written word!
So as with the Bible since it's inception!

I am amazed at how quick post here are taken so personal when I think most of the time we are just expressing a view be it right or wrong!

I kind of like the volley! Wheather I agree with these dudes or not it is interesting to know who "your fishing with"!

[huntfish]

Good Grief Charlie Brown. I quote a well respected contributor of this board.

"Bow wow wow woow" EOS

[LuvTrout]

I try to repoduz ever saterdy nite.

[The Ole Man]

True to form at NGTO, these hot weather vents ziiiiinng! Hope everyone feels better now that we have saved the world.

It is well known that the singular most effective form of birth control is an aspirin- held tightly between the knees. That's all folks!

[The Owl]

...and true to form, they include cry's of " not here!" and " this isn't the place" ! They also birth decade old quotes, probably out of context either in actual fact or in the tims frame in which they were said....etc.etc.etc.


if you can't understand the China thing - tough. I'm tired of tryign to explain it to you. end of story.
if you can't handle the topic...you have two choices and it's high time we made on e of them here at NGTO -


You can either stop being so cry baby every time some thread leads to an off topic conversation, or........

You can follow the lead of VFS and FAOL and BAN anything other than fishing talk.

DO THAT or stop whining. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif ( I'm smiling..not mad, but I mean it. )


PS - Conservatives are for LESS government.
Geeez.....some people will believe anything. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


You want all fishing talk and nothing else....try VFS where they BAN you for talking about something besides flyfishing. I should know. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif Heck. I do know.

Or you can have me booted. ( how's that EG - too melodramatic for ya? Tuff. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif haha )

[The Owl]

http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif BOOT ME! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif BOot me! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif bOOt ME ! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

Owl


friday night funtime............lump it. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

I'm gonna go away now. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[THE EG]

And once again Owl does not have it right.

"if you can't handle the topic...you have two choices and it's high time we made on e of them here at NGTO - You can either stop being so cry baby every time some thread leads to an off topic conversation, or........
You can follow the lead of VFS and FAOL and BAN anything other than fishing talk.
DO THAT or stop whining. ( I'm smiling..not mad, but I mean it. )"

You seem to think you need to be banned or others need to stop whining.

Sorry. Saying there are only two choices is incorrect. Again.

I don't see anybody whining here. I don't whine, Owl. Another spin perpetrated by the Owl.

NGTO has a fine history of allowing open discussion. It's my opinion you take advantage of the tolerance most of the members of this board give to you. Consider it a fault of polite southern hospitality. You know nobody is going to ban you so you can thrust that in everybody's face.

However, many other choices remain. One way is to confront the generalized misinformation that you at times spread all over this board. I've been trying to do that lately.

Take this as a positive or a negative but you are a master political manipulator.

You work this board like a politician. You act as if you are constantly in search of the truth. However, when confronted with facts it is my opinion you sidestep them and then go for the win.

Instead of answering a challenge directly, you:

1) Try to curry favor with other members that have similar beliefs instead of answering a question.

2) Accuse those that disagree with you of "not getting it".

3) Use the old "that's what I said but not what I meant" excuse.

4) Act as if the others that disagree with you are elitists who are just beating up on "poor little ole you".

5) Respond to serious discussions with inappropriate sarcasm. After slinging barbs you respond with http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif and "I was just kidding".

6) Some times you will try to win favor by playing dumb. YOU ARE NOT DUMB.

7) Insinuate falsely that conspiracies are afoot. Yet you are above such things.

8) Through shear prolific posting you attempt to overwhelm a member you diaagree with. You are the consumate "last word-er".

All these seem to rap around your constant emphasis that you are "only seeking the truth". That itself is false. All of the methods above that you use are not to seek the truth. They are to win.

I would give individual examples of each but anybody with a stitch of objectivity can find examples all over this board.

On this thread alone your statement:

Population Control = family planning = abortion.

Is false. I too practiced population control. I too practiced family planning. Are you insinuating I am in favor of abortion?

Confronted with that you say" Oh, that was meant for those "environmental whacko" groups that you so well wrapped into an evil as great as China. When Dulthgator questioned you with specific questions about you're comparing environmental groups with China. You never answered his question. The armwaving about China began.

Your not misunderstood. In fact, most members on this board are very aware of the ways in which you work. Most of them just ignore your rants. My concern is that ignoring them may lead newer members to wonder what is going on with NGTO.

That's my opinion and I'm not in the mood to be diplomatic. If you don't like it, TUFF.

So there are other ways than whining or banning you. Confrontation is another option.

And it IS about fishing.

[The Owl]

Dear EG,
I mean what I say and usually, unless attempting humor, or being sarcastic( which to me is funny - sarcasm that is)say what I mean. I think it's easy to see that I answer questions(whatever that means) just like anyone else. However, you are right about one thing, I post too much. However, not for the reasons you state. You seem to suddenly know what I think very well.....well, at least you think you do. I suppose it's some of that liberalism coming through, though so that's fine.
I don't think you're right about me, and I should know. Much of the " poor ole me " remarks, if that's what you call them, are meant to express my concern that few members agree with my positions, or that few will admit it.
- before I respond to each accusation individually, it has occured to me that I don't really need to explain my actions, motives or judgements to you - but I will rply to what i remember...your post fankly isn't worth reviewing....
However, i will say that if you didn't get the " Boot me, boot me, boot me " thing, then you really DON'T know me, do you? It was a joke. There was a smiley. Now, if I can't use smiley's like anyone else, simply because you assume I'm manipulating them to cover something up?
Silly.

Whining -what would I be called if I posted a reply to something calling for an end to something over and over? A whiner...for sure. I know as well as anyone that we don't limit, or have not traditionally limited what subjects can be discussed here. Again, on this, it's sarcasm, dear EG, merely sarcasm.

As for misinformation.......I'll try to keep from doing that and can only say that no misinformation from me has ever been intentional. I assume you're talkign about the recent postings of myself and Allen. I've talked to other members that felt that the words in question did indeed send out a wrong "message" about breaking the limit regulation.

Being dumb?
I don't know what you're refering to exactly. I mean, I can't spell - don't take the time to try on a BB, but other than that, if I ever said I was dumb, again, it was sarcastic. I'm fond of sarcastic humor, sue me.


Now, EG, you've made me see something. My first thoughts at seeing you're post were that I should just leave, for good this time. However, after writing somewhat of a reply, I have realized that that's not what I should do.

What I should do is try to make myself clearer. Speak straighter. Drop the sarcasm. True, it'll be boring, but that's ok. If it makes you happier, then I'll try. After all, I wouldn't want to upset anyone.

Owl

[The Owl]

Sorry. That last sentence was sarcastic. ( would use a smiley here, but no....) Give me a while to adjust.


Can I say " Misinforming, lying, manipulating, politically motivated Owl" - that's probably bad too I guess.

[The Owl]

Oh i missed a few things.....turns out your post IS worth another look.


To begin with I would like to clarify for you, whether yo uchoose to believe me or not, that this is NOT a "poor ole me" post.
It is however, my last post on NGTO, due to my realization that you are not alone, and that there are hundreds, yea thousands that would like to see me gone. No big deal.


I did answer DG's question. yo umight not have liked the answer, but that too, is TUFF, isn't it.

As for people ignoring me, that doesn't bother me, go ahead. I don't post what i post to have an audience.

After reviewing you're post, I get the "feeling" that you are speaking for others as well as yourself, so perhaps NGTO would be better off without my rantings....

That puts NGTO in very good company. That makes two organizations( or at least two people) that feel that I'm " no big loss " as I was told by a TU Chpater leader by an errant email. I feel like I should ' be clearer" for you and name him, but I won't.

EG, you don't have to be diplomatic. You don't even have to be civil. And, whether you realize it or not, you don't even have to like me. I have no problem with that....there are plenty of people that don't.

I'll miss a few things, but life goes on I suppose. May NGTO one day be everything that it should be.


Many thanks to The Ole Man, my first NGTO conflict http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif, Milliam, my best fishing buddy and all around nice guy,Aaron, for starting this whole thing, EG, for all the information, for the corkers and for not laughing TOO hard about the yellowjacket episope, Beedub(wherever you are) for good fishing and many laughs, Grizz, for The Nan and the food, Hoochrat, for the food, wisdom, and late night lectures( I'm sure I deserved it), Drifter,for tons of things, and the float trip, SuperChub, for saving me from the Hooch and al; the great stories around the campfire, Rod, for arguing and pointing out that I mispell more when I'm angry, Mr. T for being Mr. T http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif, Tom, for keepign me from tarnishing the good name of TU, and anyone and everyone else that I've left out....no way I could thank you all.


The Owl is dead.
Enjoy.

[This message has been edited by The Owl (edited 07-15-2001).]

[The Ole Man]

Memorial service this evening on "Chat" at 7:30 PM- Rev. Rush Limbaugh will speak. Resurrection forecast is for Monday evening at 9:00 PM. Please arrive early as bandwidth is limited. Egeland Mortuary in charge of arrangements.

[Speck]

Well just **** .

EG, if you don't understand that at least on the political scene,
population control = family planning = abortion,
then you don't watch the news or read the paper very often.

OF COURSE, on an individual level, most of the time, that's not what it means. We all (well, most of us) practice some variation of family planning, and everyone knows it. Talk about spin. Forget Owl's abdication; you were already the king.



------------------
Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[duluthgator]

FWIW, No Owl, you never did answer my question. Here it is copied verbatum from the last time it was asked. You did everything BUT answer the question.

"Please answer just one thing. In a post above you said "Did you know that the goal is to have the whole world subjected to the system in place in China?"

Where do you get your information that says the Sierra Club wants the "whole world" "subjected to the system in place in China?

[Gray ghost]

Geezzz I miss everything! My computer was acting up yesterday and wouldn't let me log on to the NGTO site. Was anyone else having this problem? Was there really a memorial service for Owl? Tell me it aint so. Does Jane Fonda have anything to do with the Sierra club?

[Speck]

Yes, it's true. The body has been donated to science. His brain, however, has been Hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnall's front porch. It will be implanted into a brook trout and released in the Chattahoochee headwaters later this year, as per Owl's dying request.

------------------
Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[Windknot]

I just got back online to re-read Jeffg's CO trip report (it is fabulous!) and made the mistake of looking down here.

Speck, you've got me daydreaming about the legend of Ninja Brookie - who clamps four roofing nails in his jaws and flops out of the stream along the road to the poacher's vehicle, a classic Oldsmo-tiac-olet, vintage 1968-72, and boobytraps all four bald tires.

There's one trout who'll never be caught. Unless someone perfects the Mt. Dew fly, of course.

I think I gotta get back to work.

[William McClendon]

Eg, you say...
"Your not misunderstood. In fact, most members on this board are very aware of the ways in which you work. Most of them just ignore your rants. My concern is that ignoring them may lead newer members to wonder what is going on with NGTO."

Fact???...Most??? Did I miss a survey or something?
Sounds like we want new members of NGTO to think a certain way or something. Guess I missed that one too!

Milliam
Truly honored to be Owl's "best fishing buddy"

[Allen]

EG, I think I understand how you think NGTO is supposed to work. If it doesn't fit yours or TU's or the DNR's agenda it doesn't belong on the board. You can't stand people who don't conform but I don't give a **** . You said you were in the "computer loop" with the DNR but I wonder if your in more than that. I'll say whatever the hell I want to whether you like it or not, I don't hide anything. And now look what you've done. The person I respect most on this board is no longer posting because you and others like Duluth Gator don't like the fact that he expresses himself. But don't worry, I'm sure It's no big loss for you guys either. When there are no more wild trout in GA it is people like you who caused it. Thats ok though because you'll still be able to chase the truck with your corn. Hopefully, I will be in the paradise that is Montana when that sad day arrives.

------------------
Plan for the future, practice catch and release.

[Kent]

Ole Man -
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

Allen -
Ease off, man. It's not that bad. Check out the Ole Man's prediction for the Resurrection. It'll happen - those who've been here awhile have seen it before. Sometimes the Owl's self-imposed banishment lasts for a day or two, sometimes it doesn't last to the end of the thread, or even the post.

************
Kent

[FlygURL]

EG - I'm with you. I agree with most of you post.

What I have said about Owl to others, I have said to Owl in person. I know that the digests will be a lot shorter until Owl returns. And, I do believe that Owl will come back.

Sometimes I laugh at the chatter, but most of the time I ignore it and scroll through what I do not want to read. It can be annoying scrolling through, wasting my time reading, for example, non-fishing related political dribble. I want to read about fishing. That is why I am here.

I hear folks say that they like to know what their fellow fly fishermen think on a variety of non-fishing subjects - then get to know them personally and email them privately. If I care what you think about a particulr movie, restuarant, or football team, I'll let you know.

In my opinion on this particular thread that started out about hunting, there is no logical way female reporductive rights should have come up. Without going into an argument over whether I think it is approprite for you guys to be discussing these types of female issues, generally, I think that many would agree we should stay away from religion and politics that do not relate to fishing - duh! I do not think that you guys would like it if all of my girlfriends go onto NGTO and chatted about hairstyles. Nor do I think that you would put up with it.

Owl, I love you - but you do get tangent off subject quite a bit. I'd much rather hear about who you've written a letter to or had a discussion with lately to make positive change to our fisheries or, better yet, hear about your last fishing trip.

Now I have heard others agree that they do not enjoy the off subjects either, but these are the folks who are probably just going to scroll through my post, because it is off subject. They are the types who will not respond. Sorry guys for cluttering the board/digest.

------------------
FlygURL
Beth's web page - check it out! (http://www.mindspring.com/~jandb)
"Remember No Hunters, No wildlife, No fishermen, No fish." - O'Neill Williams (http://www.oneiloutside.com)

[Tom]

Right On Beth! I understand how politics come up on the various posts; but, religion should never be a part of the Message Board. There are countless web sights for expressing one's religious philosophy. Why not use them. And planned or unplanned parenthood! Really! And to all of you who miss Owl...don't hold your breath, the resurrection is probably underway. Tight Lines, Tom

[The Ole Man]

An Owl sighting occurred this evening at kbrcomm.com/trout, Blue Ridge Trout Message Board. Owl was incognito as "BrookieChaser". The resurrection has taken place, but Owl has apparently suffered a lost chain and doesn't recognize who or where he is. It is definitely him though, as his post there titled "My On Again, Off Again Love Affair with TU" has all the unmistaken benchmarks of an "Owlism". I will recheck his homing device and see if re-calibration is an option. Report to follow.

[This message has been edited by The Ole Man (edited 07-17-2001).]

[J Byrd]

I'd like to say that I believe this thread was the first to have the word "condom" in the history of NGTO. Yet another first.

Owl will be back, you just gotta believe.



------------------
J. Byrd
Kid tested, mother approved!

It was written: We are born to die. Let us cover a lot of water in that time.

[Drifter]

In light of the verbal sparring going on, thought I might add a little excerpt from Drifter's Message Board FAQs:
-----------------------------------------

Its OK to disagree or dislike but not OK to disrespect!

Remember to respond as if you were sitting face-to-face with the person, and not as an anonymous propeller head a thousand miles away. I don’t know who said this but it pretty much describes the Message Board: “It is truly The Savage Jungle - the Freudian Id personified. A place where the benefits of semi-anonymity serve as a brutal millstone that democratically grinds the bloated egos of all participants to the lowest common denominator of civility. It should come as no surprise that the common grease of the millstone is understanding and respect for your fellow men (women, whatever). And here, as in face-to-face life, humility garners the greatest respect."

Zuke said it best, “….When making a post...prepare for critique and negative comment....and take the good with the bad. Unbridled freedom is rough sometimes.....wear a cup if you fear getting kicked in the 'nads.”
--------------------------------------------

My dos pesos,

------------------
The Drifter <'(((><
NGTO License Plates (http://www.mindspring.com/~skeeble/ngtotag.htm)

The Virtual Fish Camp (http://www.mindspring.com/~skeeble/virtualfishcamp.htm)

[Rambler]

Man, You go on vacation and all the neighbors move out!!

A tear will be shed if this is truly Owl's swan song. He is a character and has shared information with me that he didn't have to. I appreciate that.

Several months back we got into this same discussion about posting non-fishing threads. It is a real pain to have to skim through the digests and have 3\4 of it be non-fishing subjects. But several people convinced me last time that this is a country where free speech is still cherished. And it becomes very difficult to draw the line on where "fishing related" threads begin and end.

When we were listing great places to eat in North GA, was that "across the line"?

I think that one of the reasons there has been so much interest in this site is because of the diverse opinions. EG and Beth have gotten tired of Owl's modus operandi, and I can respect that. But I prefer to "skip over" the non-fishing articles and get at what I am interested in, the Yellow J... oh, I mean fishing!
Let's not banish anyone unless they are slanderous. And Owl, if you are self-imposing a ban, get over it and come back. The water's fine and there are brookies at JB!!!

FWIW

Rambler

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Milliam is right. Perhaps it is just improper use of syntax or "shooting from the hip", but EG, I too, did not get the survey in which "most" members stated the ignore Owl's "rantings". I don't always agree with the man, but he's as much entitled to his opinion, as you are to rebut it, civily, w/o speaking for the rest of us.

[Allen]

Since LT's post was deleted then mine has no meaning anymore.

[This message has been edited by Allen (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Speck]

Hey Luv,

You sure seem to know a lot about Allen to have only been a member for 4 days.


------------------
Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[duluthgator]

"because you and others like Duluth Gator don't like the fact that he expresses himself. But don't worry, I'm sure It's no big loss for you guys either. When there are no more wild trout in GA it is people like you who caused it"

Excuse me Allen but when it comes to wild trout I think my comments in the past have been more in line with the thinking of you and owl than anything else. I have supported regulations and have only pointed out that attacking the DNR is not the way to get them to agree with you.

I have never said owl should not express himself, but only challenged some statements he made and asked for info from him to back up those statements.

If your MO is to attack someone that has a different opinion than you than I am afraid you have a lot to learn. I have a lot of friends in Montana, all in the guide and outfitting business, one was my best man in my wedding. Trust me, your attitude will not go over any better there than it does here.

[Lil'Joe]

All I've got to say is just D***!!

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. All this seemingly hateful, non productive posting is juvenile.

I've been a part of this BB for over ayear, seen the arguments, seen the LOVE http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif, seen the likes of most of you at two flings and a couple of trips getting along very well and having a good time. Isn't that what this should be all about? Learning, sharing, joking, discussing......not attacking, being (IMO) disrespectful and down right mean at times (on the BB of course, I have never seen these heated discussions come face to face).

Let's get back to fishing. Post what you like, I'm sure someone will respond and give you a forum. But for God's sake, stop with the hateful stuff.....it does no good.

Joe

[BLACK KNIGHT]

Gooks? So, Luv, you're not only an idiot, you're racist too. How charming. Not.

[Grady]

Not trying to put words in EG's mouth here, but I believe it is self-evident that most members (can't include myself here http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif) ignore much that is not about fishing. On those threads that degenerate into pissing contests, most simply choose not to participate. EG never said that members "stated" they ignore Owl's off-topic stuff. All you have to do to see that EG is right is read the threads. Usually it is a small number of posters who get something stuck in their craws and can't let it go.I think most of us have been there, done that, but the larger portion of us don't do it regularly.

[Lil'Joe]

Exactly Grady........

[THE EG]

I believe LuvTrout is what I refer to as a "Guerrilla" poster. They either come straight from the lurker ranks or they are a member that wants to hide their identity.

The reasons are usually apparent why.

Because of what I thought was a racist statement (I believe BK agreed), I attempted to edit it.

Unfortunately, I hit the darn delete button instead of the edit button so the whole post is gone. This throws off the context of the following threads.

The post was between Black Knight's 7/17/01 12:01 PM post and Allen's 7/17/01 10:26 PM post.

LuvTrout,

Go back and read the regulations you agreed to abide by when you signed up on the message board.

[Chris England]

Good call regardless EG.

-- tight lines

[slicktop]

well said lil joe and drifter. post only what you would say face to face on the river.
people can make a point without calling each other names and cussing. to be so young and wound so tight as some of you seem to be is going to mean heart attack city in the future. chill and talk about it from a float tube. you say what you want to say and enjo
y the day to boot. my .02.

[bowtied]

Luv,

you keep up the attack, and you won't have any time to dig your foxhole when the artillary starts flying your way..

No need to be so aggressive

The Bow

Allen, the bigger person can shrug off nonsensical personal attacks. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[bowtied]

Luv,

you keep up the attack, and you won't have any time to dig your foxhole when the artillary starts flying your way..

No need to be so aggressive

The Bow

Allen, the bigger person can shrug off nonsensical personal attacks. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[superchub]

EG...Just in case you are wondering..Just for the record...I did not wade in and comment on this as a Gorilla poster! I'm staying out of it.
SC

[DAWGFISH]

Hey, am I the only one that is missing some threads? I have found some of LT's comments on other subjects, but not on this one. Have they been edited? I was just curious and wanted to see what was getting everybody all worked up, but I'm not seeing them. Strange.

[BLACK KNIGHT]

DAWG- see EG's post at 10:23 a.m.

[sageboy]

Did anyone have any of their opinions changed by any of the above posts?

My dad told me that you could never win an argument about religion or politics. I think we can safely add abortion & illegal immigrants to that list. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

bob

[DAWGFISH]

BK,

Thanks for the tip, everything is clearer now(at least for my foggy brain)!

[The Owl]

Please forgive my posting, but thanks to someone's email note to me( Thanks ), I have been moved to come here and refute one prior statement. Therefore, I am of the opinion that...........

The idea that you cannot "win"(if you so choose to use that word)a debate regarding religion or politics is not only wrong, but a little self-serving for those that would rather not be concerned with anything beyond their own nose, in most cases. If it were a factual statement, there would be no United States of America, and there would, more than likely, be no Protestant denominations. Many of us would still be supressed under earlier religious beliefs, innacurate doctrine and ridiclious ritual. However, many thought enough of a lone note nailed to The Church door to leave behind what they believed, for newfound statements of faith and truth and the newfound freedom that leads to a joyful life.

In addition, I also feel that..........


Abortion is murder, so there's no need to try to "win" that argument. If you don't think so, simply do a search for pictures of aborted fetuses. If you can look at them and still say that it is something short of murder, then God help you, and God help us all.

PS - before you left-wing zealots jump on me, I didn't bring it up this time, I'm jsut providing the answer.

PSS - Obviously, I didn't see the statement, but if we're now editing/deleting posts based on what we "think" is a racist statement, then it really has gone to the dogs hasn't it.


Regretful for having to post again.

Jeff
Sierra Club's desire to see the whole world come under population control laws......that was my opinion. I think I'm allowed to have one still....at least elsewhere.

[fredfishy]

The resurrection... after 4 days!!! A record, I believe.

And Owl, we already KNOW what you think, as you have expresssed it time and time again.

[THE EG]

Some clarification is in order. My first post was written in anger.

I had spent time I did not have over the previous couple of weeks doing the legwork to repudiate misinformation both Owl and Allen had been saying. Specifically on the DNR subject.

I had been on a low boil about allegations of collusion among the DNR and TU and even insinuations that NGTO had been somehow silenced by the DNR.

I am extremely critical of false statements and insinuations about folk’s or organization’s integrity. Owl had recently led pot shots at TU, the DNR and even the EPD.

By the point last Friday rolled around I had had enough. Then Owl’s sarcastic kidding sort of pushed me over the edge. I snapped at the turn of events of the “This just in!” thread. I didn’t even see the “Boot Me, Boot me, Boot me” post before sending the message.

I typed it up quickly (and somewhat poorly) late Friday night after stewing about it most of the evening. I then typed up the post in the DNR thread confronting the allegations there.

As he’s gone, I’m just going to point out three things in his swan song.

1) I see he came out with the “liberal” punch as usual.

2) Owl put the “lying” into the discussion, I never did. I have always respected Owl’s integrety, my problems were with the misinformation and railroading through disagreements.

3) I have no idea what he means by his “feeling” that I am speaking for others. But if the suggestion was that their was some type of collusion among whomever (?, a common theme lately), he was incorrect. As I said, I read the various threads related to the DNR and this one on Friday night, thought about it, then posted. No, I was not speaking for others.

Speck,

I read most of the AJC everyday and usually the Cherokee Tribune. I think this helps me see both a left-leaning and a right-leaning slant to things. I agree with you and Owl to a point. But as far as I know, until you get into the fuzzy high math, an equal sign represents an absolute. There are methods for population control and family planning that do not equal abortion. Am I incorrect about that? And I don’t understand your “spin” comment. Would you let me know what you mean by that either by email or otherwise.

William and Black Knight,

My comment was simply an observations based from my time on the board. I was typing fast and furious. I was not trying to say anybody should be censored, but that outrageous comments should not be ignored either. Maybe we should ask for a survey.

Speck, William and Black Knight,

Since I respect you opinions and you were the only ones other than Owl that gave me some critical feed back. You hit on some minor points. But what about the major points? Was I incorrect here and on the DNR thread?

Allen,

I’ve tried to show you respect but you don’t seem to have any respect for anything other than your views. It was insinuations about people's and group's integrity that set me off in the first place. You also make accusations that are incorrect and without merit. It’s not worth getting mad at you.

[THE EG]

Criminy,

I go to check my post and he's already back.

[sageboy]

Owl - Let me clarify.

All I was trying to say in my previous post was that I believe that religion/abortion are matters of the heart and I doubt seriously that anyone's deep-set feelings about these subjects are going to be swayed by an argument on a fishing board. In my experience, it takes a deep emotional experience to convert someone from one side of these issues to the other.

I don't always agree with your positions, but I respect them. I would hope that I deserve the same consideration.

You are obviously a man of deep religious belief. You can follow The Dalai Lama, Jesus, Thich Nhat Hanh, Budda, the Pope or whoever you want. If it brings you peace of mind, and helps you to lead a disciplined, moral life, then more power to you. All I ask is that you be tolerant of my beliefs.

I choose not to do a "search for pictures of aborted fetuses". I'm sure it would repulse me. I also choose not to do a search for any "feed the hungry" sites as I'm sure the sight of malnourished starving children in a third world nation would equally repulse me. I don't know what the answer is. When all is said & done, I will answer to my God for my beliefs someday.

In closing let me say that if you choose not to post on this board anymore, then this place will be much less interesting. I've had many a bad day and come home & clicked on one of your posts only to find myself smiling. You are one of the reasons I keep coming back.

bob
(If there was a message icon with a peace symbol, I would insert it here)

[The Owl]

The only reason I posted was to protect my semi-good name.
I thought your post insinuated that you weren't the only one that thought along the lines you were professing!
<<< Your not misunderstood. In fact, most members on this board are very aware of the ways in which you work. Most of them just ignore your rants>>> Wasn't that right? I suggest you reread it. I have.

I don't know who thinks what, unless they post it, but somehow it's ok for you to generalize, isn't it?
As for THAT, I've told you why my comments on the DNR and TU contained no names, and why Allen's contained no names. Allen sisn't know who said what, and I, generously and in hind sight foolishly, decided NOT to reveal the source of the information. I thought that stating who said it was not necessary, however, I see that my word( whihc turned out to be pretty accurate, I might add) isn't worth much these days to alot of people. That's too bad. Also, your repeated accusations of misinformation, much less intentional misinformation(which is again, insinuated by your tone) is unfounded.
I merely said what I had read, in both instances, and left off convicting data. It was, in fact an attempt at NOT rocking the boat, while still letting members know what was going on. Ohhhhhhhh, but as we all know, there is nothing going on. No phone calles between members of NGTO and the DNR discussing what's going on, no monitoring of the board by individuals of the DNR for any reason other than personal ones, and def. no discussion of NGTO at chapter meetings, etc. etc. etc. Somewhere, somehow, we've got to decide EG, whether we're going to lay all the cards on the table not. You can call me what you like, and you can say that you have no clue as to what I'm talking about( you probably don't!), but I know for a fact that all these things that I just described have happened. Deny it if you like, but the fact that you, or anyone else in NGTO is not aware of it, isn't my problem.
There's no great conspiracy, not that I know of, and your accusations of my "misinformation" is simply due to the fact that I would not provide names and specifics to the facts that I had.
Don't worry though. The next time I'm there to bring you some news, I'll not spare names, dates, places, forums, .....no, next time I avoid all the doubt and bile of my so called "friends" and I'll leave no doubt as to the facts of whatever it is that I'm relaying to you all.
EG, at first I was sad, then I got a little angry, then I decided to leave, then I came back to post in defense of a few things that I believe in, things that btw - are perfectly alright for someone else to mention. Then I read your second set of comments and decided that you aren't worth leaving NGTO, and you aren't the god of NGTO and don't think for a minute that I'm always going to continue to pull punches. From now on, I will not hold back, I will not conform and I will not try to conceal things to keep the peace. You see what that's wrought. WHy, the WHOLE REASON for this thread, was in response to Edwin's comment that he couldn't find any super-extremo sites related to the environmental movement. Well, in the first few posts, there you have them. That's right, there are environmental whacko sites out there, linked to what is condsidered to be more moderate sites.
As for what new members think of NGTO - I think that's up to all of us, isn't it? Me included, btw.
And for those of you that might have joined us late, ........you should know that I am the same person here, at home, at work, and anywhere I go. I do not change, I do not transform, and I do not try to be anything for anyone. I'm sick of it EG. Bring it on. You or whoever is or isn't with you.
Sooooooooooooo,..........
Well, now I've come to a fork in the road. I can either resolve to be the black sheep, and go hide under a rock somewhere, or I can resume my priviledge as a member to post whatever I like within the rules. I didn't post ANY information that wasn't true. The fact that I didn't list the names is a non-factor. The accuracy of my "paraphrasing" is better than CNN, NBC and ABC put together..... if you know what the word means - and I know you do.
You may feel free to confront me anytime you choose, but NOT with unfounded accusations and unproven assumptions. AND again, I like sarcasm, I enjoy it- even when you use it, and I intend to use it for as long as I'm freely allowed to do so.....that is...if you don't mind( see....that was sarcasm right there!) You know, you don't know me at all, perhaps you should ask someone who does.......me thinks you assume too much, and your accusations are based on what you read into my posts, not my actual posts. Anything you find that fits your idea of a "bad Owl post"..you reread it and try to understand me if you like....I don't care if you do or not, and I'll jsut leave it at that.
btw - <<< 2) Owl put the “lying” into the discussion, I never did>>> .........I can read.....I suppose your definition of "misinformation" is vastly different from "lying". Mine's not. I think anything that isn't the truth is lying, and if you'd been paying attention these last few years you'd know THAT about me, too.
Eg, the way I see it(read it) you've tried your best to discredit me here, prove that I'm trying to use NGTO as something( What, I have no idea.....) and make everyone believe that I have some hidden agenda. You know, I simply cannot win here......I say what I think, and I get flammed. I try to be nice and i get flamed. I state the above two sentences and I get called a "poor lil ole me" poster. Your self proclaimed links to the DNR have not gone unnoticed by members of NGTO. We're all grateful that someone on the BOD has gone to the trouble of making friends with those that stock trout, do research and enforce the laws. I'm glad that there is someone that speaks their language......'cause I sure don't. Now, I'm sure that's my fault and I expect to be told so by someone, maybe even you, and that's just fine. But I will always call em like i see em........you know....**** the torpedos, full speed ahead.

You know, I think this little round of discussion might have just entrenched me here for good. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif Enjoy.

Owl

PS - and you got one other thing wrong - at times I seek the facts of matters but as a general rule, I'm not seeking the TRUTH, I know the TRUTH.




[This message has been edited by The Owl (edited 07-19-2001).]

[The Owl]

Oh and btw - six days is my new record for not posting. ;p

[The Owl]

Sorry for the mulitple posts on this everyone, but I think it's important....<<<I had spent time I did not have over the previous couple of weeks doing the legwork to repudiate misinformation both Owl and Allen had been saying. Specifically on the DNR subject.>>>

Huh? You posted the thing yourself! Was that not what I was saying? That someone in the DNR said that it didn't matter if people kept more than eight? The context? Sure, I considered that.....but when you copy something into written form , and send it out to people that may or may not be in TU( like I was not), then what does that say to those people. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone would take that to mean that keeping an extra fish was ok ? I think not.

* To all members......as I am continuing to try to deal with the accusations here, it's giving me a headache. Any issues unresolved relating to my character or my motives ? Feel free to ask however you like.....here, email, whatever. The EG is NOT the last word on what I think, how I act, and what I mean to accomplish(if anything......usually not...) by posting on this site.


( Oh that? You'd call that "working the room" if I was what you thought I was......but what it really is is an attempt to defend myself without staying up all night to address the long and growign list of assumptions about my character and motives.)

[Speck]

EG,
First, I applaud your last post. Very cool-headed. We all (me included) should try it more often.

Now to your questions directed to me.

Spin: 1. Turning a question around on the person asking it, thereby avoiding having to respond. 2. Manipulating a truthful statement in such a way as to make it sound like a lie, or vice-versa.

Examples:

"I too practiced population control. I too practiced family planning. Are you insinuating I am in favor of abortion?"
You know very well what Owl meant here. As I explained in my previous post, in political circles, though abortion is not all that liberals mean when they speak of population control, it is the cornerstone of the concept.

"Your not misunderstood. In fact, most members on this board are very aware of the ways in which you work. Most of them just ignore your rants."
It's true most of us know how Owl works, but the way you say that leaves a very negative image.

"That's my opinion and I'm not in the mood to be diplomatic. If you don't like it, TUFF."
I like this mindset, I really do, but you used it after more or less demanding that Owl be more diplomatic.

"And it IS about fishing."
And fishing IS about more than just fishing.

That covers the spin question. I'll have to re-read again to get to the one directed to myself, BK and ... Oh heck, forgot who the other one was, but you get the idea.




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Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[Speck]

Okay, re-read the thread, but I don't get what you mean about addressing major points.
It looks like all the points have been covered (except those relating directly to Owl, which I'll let him answer himself).

By the way, I didn't weigh in earlier, but I, too applaud your handling of LuvTrout's post. Greatly appreciated.



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Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[Tom]

Ho-ummm...yawn. Tom

[Kent]

Tom, me too. Wake me when you get up, will ya?


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Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://kje.home.mindspring.com)

[BLACK KNIGHT]

EG- since you spoke directly to me in your last post, I feel compelled to show you the courtesy of a response.
1. I think words mean things. We should all be careful that we don't generalize and speak for the group as a whole. It's easy to unintentionally do, and if I looked back at some of my posts, I bet I'd be guilty, too.

2. Fill me in. Where else did I offer criticism on minor points and not major points? I don't care for the topics, tangents, and tone of this thread. I only responded to your post because I was even more upset by what appeared after it to me as a lot of Owl bashing, once it became "vogue".
3. I stand by all my comments. I never liked the Bills. I am 100% against trout practicing family planning and birth control.
Exposing people to safe handling of weapons is good. I believe the use of the term "gooks" by luvstrout is a racist slur. (You were right to delete it). I believe luvstrout is also an idiot. The only other thing I commented on was covered in #1.

So again, I'm in the dark as to what major topic I did not address unless it is the conspiracy stuff. I chose not to address conspiracy theory relating to TU, NGTO, DNR, and anyother agency because I have no information on the subject. Again, it pains me to perpetuate this thread, but I feel you are owed the courtesy of a response. If I can clarify anything, I'd be glad to, just let me know what, either here or by e-mail.

PS- I think religion is deeply personal and nobody should use this BB to attack another person's faith. I think it's pretty offensive to use terms like ridiculous ritual in describing facets of another denomination's faith.

[GregLS]

North Georgia "Springer" Online!

[William McClendon]

Well said BK and Speck.

EG...I actually hit on the only point I saw fit to. I actually couldn't find any "major points" in your post. Everything seemed to be your opinion of Owl. I'm not going to respond in saying that your opinion is wrong. I don't agree with it, but its yours. Just adding more defensive/offensive opinions wasn't going to help this thread.

As for you being correct here or on the DNR thread...I don't know. What I see are different interpretations of different things. Its kind of like if I post that I just bought a truck...some people might paint a mental picture of a new Ford, some an old Chevy (some probably have a life and would just skip the picture http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif)...I think it has something to do with your mindset, your beliefs, and even your living environment. I think we all read stuff into things. That's just the way it is.

Milliam

[The Owl]

Well, I must say that if I am anything it is offensive. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif All depending, of course, on what you believe.


Tom, Kent, you'll probably need to set the alarm for about 6am....Tuesday of next week I'm thinking.


Owl


A Kirsen - this one's for you( while I'm at it) http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[Speck]

Kind of hypocritical to post a non-essential message as a means of saying a thread is non-essential, don't you think?



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Speck
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout

[GonetoSeed]

"All I was trying to say in my previous post was that I believe that religion/abortion are matters of the heart and I doubt seriously that anyone's deep-set feelings about these subjects are going to be swayed by an argument on a fishing board. In my experience, it takes a deep emotional experience to convert someone from one side of these issues to the other"

Sageboy - very good point, but not quite historically accurate.

The definition of a logical arguement is to start with a "fact", make a progressive series of connecting points to support a conclusion. If the points do not contradict one another then the conclusion is logical. The issue you bring up in respect to religion is very important to resolving two equally logical conclusions that are in opposition or conflict. For one side to "win" the conflict, they must go back through the chain of logic and discredit the starting fact. The problem with religion, or politics for that matter, is that these starting "facts" are usually matters of faith (religion) or social points of view (politics). As you say, to discredit the "fact" requires a conversion of faith or basic social point of view. In history, if there was a significant advantage to winning the conflict - gain or retain power over the other side - and verbal persuasion did not bring about the conversion, more dramatic tactics were the recourse - the Catholic Inquisition, the Protestant Crusades, the Muslim Jihad.

If the more powerful side also thought that their conclusion -their position - was superior and the other's inferior, and there was no way to convert the other side, ie, you couldn't possibily change them, then the superior side would take away rights or resort to genocide (with the moral justification that the victims are inferior anyway) - the Holocaust, Jim Crow laws and pick any Balkan conflict.

There is a lighter side to this and one that relates to threads on this board. Its the paradox of logic - a conclusion that is logical and wrong. This happens when the starting fact is not a fact at all, but an assumption propped up by casual observation or "commom sense". The best example is the the conclusion held for melinia that you could walk off the edge of the world. Casual observation told our ancestors that the world was flat and because celestrial bodies rose and fell there must be an edge, it was therfore logical to conclude that if you walked far enough or sailed far enough, you would come to this edge and fall off. Now of course when Magellan got back, the conclusion had to be re-thought in the face of imperical evidence. This goes on into the story of Conpernicous, Kepler, Galileo and the fight with the Church's view that those celestrial bodies rose and fekk because they revolved around the Earth because the Earth is the center of the universe - if you assume Genesis to be true and not an allegory.

Now lets take a fisherman - lets say Owl - who fishes in NC or the Toot and has a great experience - lots of significantly bigger fish. Because, he doesn't have an altimer, instruments to measure O2, a survey of available edible biomass or an almanac showing the average daily temperatures nor has he noticed introduction of a strain of bigger fish and stream bank and bottom improvements that returned a faltering stream to health, but he does observe that NC and the Toot has special regs, then the logical conclusion he draws is special regulations result in significantly better fishing. This is particularly logical because it reinforces his superior way of fishing and he gets the by-product of banishing the inferiors and novices, taking pressure off the stream and making it even better - and less crowded. Now, if confronted with imperical evidence that his assumption is incorrect, he must either discredit the evidence, and if he can't, he must discredit the provider of the evidence.

Owl - I've tried hard up to this time to be civil with my replies. This one obviously is not. The reason is this sentence in your post:
"Many of us would still be supressed under earlier religious beliefs, innacurate doctrine and ridiclious ritual."

It is just this type of thinking that led to the earlier artrocities I mentioned.

Before you even start your "you misunderstood me, I never said I advocated atrocities" - I want you to know that I believe that this time you accurately said what was in you heart and as I said early, in matters of faith, conversion of the heart is what counts. Unless you are not willing to re-tract it because you are proud of being offensive or proud to stand by what you think you say because you truly believe it, please consider appoligies to all non-protestants.



[This message has been edited by GonetoSeed (edited 07-20-2001).]

[The Owl]

Apoligies for what? If I apoligize for saying what I said, then that makes me a hypocrite, for what I said is what I believe, at least at this point in time. If you would like to try and persuade me otherwise feel free( many would suggest an email I'm sure.).
You know, my examples are just one or two of many. There are also many protestant denominations that have rituals or beliefs that I hold to be unnecessary, and if I might add, some are quite ridiculious as well. I won't list them, since it's obvious that that kind of opinion is not well tolerated, at least by you.
However, I'd be glad to email you a list of silly things that people of all "faiths" practice that do not conform to basic Biblical principles. I believe that to understand my point, you have to believe in absolutes, which by your own post is obviously something you do not believe to be true.
And what will really confuse you is that I too believe that the Crusades, and all otehr "faith based" agression is wrong, evil, bad, whatever you'd like to call it. I would'nt dream of trying to force anyone into believing the truth. That's always the option of the individual, as is deciding if you want to accept the truth, or redefine it to your own personal liking. All that said, I don't think you misunderstood me at all. I think you linked me to Hitler, but I stand by what I said.
Also, there were several things within your amusing little analogy about the Toot which were incorrect. Namely the fact that you attribute to me some superiority complex. However, there are other things in that paragraph that are as ridiculious as ..oh......say...thinking that someone's "holiness" comes from having long hair or thinking that salvation is based on anything other than what you do or do not believe about Jesus. Of course, again, these statements are based on the belief that the Bible is absolute and true and right, and that there is right and wrong, and that none of us ever live up to being perfect, and that God is real, and clearly states what truth is, and what His relationship to us is all about and what we must do to hold up our end of it. And, what we must do to come to Him. I think you forget that Jesus was not tolerant, but a stumbling block to those that thought they knew God's will and wishes.He was not tolerant to the money changers, nor to the Pharasees, nor to those that questioned His desciples about eating on the Sabbath. ( He didn't say," Oh, you know, that's right, that's offensive to you , so despite the truth, we'll stop eating." http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif ) I'm certinaly not one to think that I know them as well as I should, or as well as I can one day know them, either. I've never claimed to be perfect and don't intend on ever doing so, but I can, and will say what God says is truth. With regard to this thread, the truth is that much of what humans do today to "please" God, or to fit into some "holy mold" is simply ritual and superstition as it was in teh days of Christ.
You should listen to the old song by Micheal W Smith. It's called " Going through the Motions ". It's pretty good too. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif


You're obviously very intelligent and I was glad to read you're post, but I'm disapointed that you'd attribute things to me that you do not know to be true.

Also, I'd like for you to give me the quote that makes you think that in Genesis, it is stated that the earth is "the center of the universe" if you don't mind. I must have missed that one.


Owl
Tolerance is a four letter word and nowadays the truth, wherever it comes from, is almost always offensive.

Right will be wrong, and wrong right. And it sure is these days.

Lastly, even though it fits into Eg's erronous assumptions about my motives, I will no longer respond here, even if you call me names. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif You can email me or I will email you. ( how's that anti-nonfishing talk folks? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif )
The only way I know to end this wretched thread is for me to stop looking at it.

[This message has been edited by The Owl (edited 07-21-2001).]

[lone_angler]

why are all of you arguing about what you do or dont belive? dont we all try keep ourselves composed in our hectic lives by going fishing and recognizing the supremecy of intricatecies of the puzzle we call nature? dont we all generally meet a better quality of poeple while discovering and experiancing nature?
big fish make big smiles!

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never fry bacon naked!
just darn good advice!