Bass'n Question Pt III

[jeffg]

Ok, warm water masters tell me a secret. How the heck do you determine strikes from largemouth b****on subsurface/sunken flies??

I watched a fish last night inhale my minnow pattern, and i never felt a twinge in my rod, nor did my line actually move. I know he took it, i saw it, but had no other signs of a strike.

It made me think, maybe I have been missing fish all along, and just never knew it!!

So tell me all wise sages, how do you know when a b****inhaled your fly?????????

Thanks,
Jeff Gillespie

[Kent]

Jeff-
A little more info, please. Type line, fly weight, retrieve, wind, water depth?

BTW, you have partially answered your own question - sometimes, you don't know! And won't! People say that they keep a tight line and are always in touch with fly - even if that is so, the fish may be moving in direction of retrieve and at about the same speed. If he takes softly and continues in the same direction, it is virtually impossible to feel the take. I've heard estimates of missed strikes ranging from 20-80%.

But tell us a little more. And especially, did you catch him?

Kent

[FFing Duo]

As I have started catching a few more of everything than I used to, I have started noticing more of a difference in how fish generally strike. Dry fly/popper fishing is fun because you can see AND hopefully feel. Subsurface though there are differences for different fish. While not true on every fish, it seemed that bream and trout both take with a tap tap type hit. But b****and crappie, just inhale it. The only time I can consistantly tell there has been a strike is when I strip there is a heaviness (hard to describe) on the line. Kind of like the moment before you are about to hang up. Then sometimes I lift the rod and the fish is on, sometimes I get hung up, and sometimes there's nothing there. Like Kent mentioned, I'd hate to think how many I never even know about.

[davida]

Jeff-

THE PROBLEM

I've seen the same thing- fish taking in still water without the angler seeing or feeling anything. Usually this is caused by slack in the line by the cast or the presentation strategy.

INDICATORS

I've alluded to an answer by suggesting the use of indicators in static fishing situations. An indicator may provide a clue when the line tip will not. The use of an indicator also tends to remove the slack between fly and indicator making subtle strikes more detectable.

STRAIGHT-LINE CASTS

Also, straight line casts my be necessary to provide a means to detect subtle takes. The cast should be made so that leader and line fall straight in the water. This means that the rod has to move in a straight line on the forward thrust.

LEADER CONFIGURATION

It also means that the leader needs to be stiffer than the usual configuration. Most well-made leaders are built so that the tippet will fall with considerable slack to allow a dragless dead drift.

LINE CONFIGURATION

Another factor in strike detection is line weight and configuration. However, most anglers are not willing to modify their fly lines, nor should they. This is not a very viable option for most fly fishers, but modification of taper can change the ability to detect a strike. There is one modification that can be made easily and that is to purchase a fly line with a no stretch core. Bite detection is enhanced by using lines with less stretch. The only manufacturer that I know that uses no-stretch cores in their lines is Airflo. British reservoir fly fishers require extreme bite detection when fishing small nymphs deep. The takes are subtle and the long line and leader tend to negate feel.

STRAIGHTENING LINES & LEADERS

Straightening leader and line prior to fishing by gently rubbing both with a rubber pad or with the hands can improve feel dramatically. Another method is to gently stretch the line and leader between the hands prior to fishing. It's always a good idea to pre-stretch, gently, a leader prior to fishing. Too vigorous a stretch and you negate the advantages of stretch that mono can have when fighting a larger fish. Mono that has been stretched is inherently weaker than unstretched mono. Nylon that has been stretched too much will usually give when tugging on a fish.

RETRIEVE

In most cases, the best way is to move the fly at a pace where any take will be felt. That's the reason most sunk fly presentation require some form of movement, whether it be a strip or a current swing. While retrieving, the take will be felt.

SLACK ELIMINATION

Eliminate slack and you will find that registration of strikes will be more noticeable. In most cases, the take will be felt as a definite "tap-tap."

LARGER FLY

Another strategy to detect takes is to switch to a larger fly. Usually, the larger the fly, the more positive the take will be. On the most part, Fish seem to hit larger flies with more authority.

WEIGHTING THE FLY

Another strategy, though not as feasible as the others, is to go to a pattern that has more weight. A heavily weighted pattern will provide a more noticeable reaction on the take, mostly by eliminating slack in the line. However, weighting the fly heavily may mask the qualities that make that fly desirable to the fish.

Hope this helps.
Regards, DA

[jeffg]

WOW!!!
THanks for the info....

Kent: I currently use my 6wt (cuz biggest flyrod I have, and dont have money currently to buy a new one).
Mostly using clouser type flies, lamb.shad patterns, buggers and the such. Most of the patterns I have been tying have weight tied into them, such as lead eyes, lead wrappin on the body etc...

Retrieves, well I am so used to trout fishing that I use the same retrieves I use for trout, strip, pause, twitch.... strip, pause, twitch etc......

I mostly use a straight line cast unless I want to curve the cast around a tree stump or other kind of structure...

But when I am "jigging" a clouser or let's say a bugger around submerged stuff, and water clarity is excellent, i still see the fish flash before i even(even if i do) feel a strike.

FFing Duo: I understand the "feeling weight on the end of the line". Neat feeling. Wish I felt it more often!

DavidA: As far as detectors. Do you mean such as a nymph detector where leader and line come together??
What is a good leader formula for bass?
I mostly use a 3x leader and add more 3x material as needed.

I guess just time and practice...
But thanks so much for advice, any more advice is most welcomed.
(I am starting to dig this bassin thing!)
Thanks for the help.

[davida]

Jeff-

using a 6 weight should pose as no problem. In fact, i prefer to use a 6 wt for most of my bassing anyway.

" Mostly using clouser type flies, lamb.shad patterns, buggers and
the such. Most of the patterns I have been tying have weight
tied into them, such as lead eyes, lead wrappin on the body
etc..."

Patterns look ok. They are weighted and you should feel them so that looks ok.

" Retrieves, well I am so used to trout fishing that I use the same
retrieves I use for trout, strip, pause, twitch.... strip, pause,
twitch etc......"

I'm beginning to see a problem here. The stop may be providing just enough slack to prevent feeling or seeing the strike. Try varying your presentation with less stops and see if that helps.

" I mostly use a straight line cast unless I want to curve the cast
around a tree stump or other kind of structure..."

I'm not sure that I communicated this concept correctly. By straighline cast, I mean the technique advocated by Dave Whitlock to control the line at the outset of the cast. It requires a cast that presents the fly with a perfectly straight leader and line- the kind that would cause drag in a trout stream.
You want to feel direct tension from fly, line and leader at the outset of the first strip.

" But when I am "jigging" a clouser or let's say a bugger around
submerged stuff, and water clarity is excellent, i still see the fish
flash before i even(even if i do) feel a strike."

Jigging usually causes the angler to lose feel of his fly. It causes momentary slack at times or "modifies the sensation of mass" by rapid change of direction and consequently feel is lost. Still it is attractive to the fish and so many of us will put up with the disadvantages of the technique.

" FFing Duo: I understand the "feeling weight on the end of the
line". Neat feeling. Wish I felt it more often! "

Among methods to detect strikes, there's "feeling weight," "the dead sensation," "the change of direction," "the eternal drop," "the zen moment," and the "felt strike" among others I've probably forgotten at this time.

" DavidA: As far as detectors. Do you mean such as a nymph
detector where leader and line come together?? "

You can use a detector anyplace you want. In some situations, the detector can be used as a "splasher rig" to add added appeal to the fly fished. The most well known example of a "splasher rig" is the popping cork of the salt water bait fishers, where these anglers add a noice bobber to create a commotion to attract fish. These rigs are also known as "meater rigs" for their noted effectiveness in parts of the south. Detectors can be panfish floats, poppers without hooks, etc. Check my post on detectors for additional thoughts on this matter.

" What is a good leader formula for bass?"

I've used everything from custom knotless to a straight piece of mono. I'd say the leader length depends on depth fished and the rig used. I tend to use a very short leader with a sinking line, in some cases even as short as 2 feet. In general, the slower the presentation and the smaller the fly then the thinner the tippet should be. I think that tapered knotless leaders work best when making slow presentations with smaller flies.
Leader construction depends on the characteristics of the angler, the conditions , the behaviour of the quarry, the presentation and the size of the fly. It's probably best done with experience and trial and error testing for each individual angler and his situation. However, if your leader lays out reasonably straight and does what you want it to do in particular cast variations and situations, it should be ok for the fishing you do.

" I mostly use a 3x leader and add more 3x material as needed."

That should be fine.

I did forget to mention that b****behaviour does affect strike feel, too. The largemouthed centrarchids tend to flare their gills on the take and inhale the hapless quarry. This causes a momentary cessation of feel on the fly fishers part, but you should feel a definite tap-tap as soon as the fly hits the mouth or throat. There's the classic piece of footage in Lau's film "Bigmouth" where Homer Circle fails to fish a large b****striking at his crankbait, but the film records the repeated strikes.

As Kent has already mentioned, direction of lure travel in relation to the direction of the fish when it hits also affects angler feel. I don't anyone can expect to catch every fish that strikes the fly.

I have an English friend that visits Florida in the winter and we fish very often. He is very proficient at it, in fact he has represented England in international FF competitions. Anyway, he is of the opinion that the angler should not strike, but that if the angler continues to retrieve, the fish will strike repeatedly and hook itself. I've seen him do it and I have seen the fish follow his fly and repeatedly hit it. His usual take is very impressive.

This post has gotten way too long. I apologize for the length.

Regards, DA

[jeffg]

David,
Hey length is a good thing, especially with the all the info provided.
Will try differnet retrieves tonight,. Heading over to Henderson Park in Dekalb county. So will try it and see what happens.

I do use a sinking line on occasion, and does have more "feel" as far as taps and such.

Do you still use a floating line for clouser type flies, or stay on a sinking line?

[davida]

I usually stay with floating for as long as I can. I also carry a shooting head with a deep sink. However recently, I received the wisdom of carrying a sink tip in certain situations (i.e. streams).

Depth and conditions will dictate what to use. However, sinking line are thinner than floating line so feel is improved. They are also easier to cast because of line diameter.

On the other hand, floating lines are far easier to manipulate and control. You can pick up and mend as needed, something that can't be performed with a sinking line until a certain amount has been retrieved. Floating line presentations are also more subtle which can be a requirement at times to entice fish.

If the b****are aggresive and willing to move, I'll work with the floating line. If the strikes are not coming as fast as I like, I'll plumb the depths.

Regards, DA

[DanS]

I think Dave Whitlock has a new book out on this topic, I just saw one by someone, I think him, at Fish Hawk a couple days ago and hadn't seen it before. I picked it up and thumbed through it and made a mental note to buy it once I could afford it.

I was a bit surprised that I'd been doing things so wrongly, and what he was preaching made sense. He was arguing for a style diametrically opposed to what we use from trout. For starters, he says "rod tip low and pointed straight at the fly." Once the fly lands, strip out all slack without moving the fly (unless it's an immediate retrieve). If it's a case of sunken fly, watch for any sort of change in the line condition at all and strip slowly with the line hand (exercizing positive line control... keeping it under the rod-hand finger while stripping) to see if there's a fish holding the fly, then once it's taut again, set the hook with sweeping back movement of the rod using the butt, not the tip. For big fish he says wait 15 seconds or so and repeat the strike a couple times since big b****clamp down so hard they can prevent the hooks from gripping.

That's paraphrase. It was interesting and very different from trout. It also means much heavier tippets since the rod tip is not in play until after the hook set (ideally). The tippet has to bear the snap of the hook set itself.

Keeping that line tight means any move of the fly away is immediately visible, and most moves forward (which creates slack) or sideways (which moves the line o one side) should also be visible.

[Hooker]

Wow! Great stuff!
One thing that I think really helps me get more b a s s on the hook is scent.
When a b a s s sucks in a bait, the lure needs to taste "right", or it immediatly gets spit out. B a s s do not like the taste of car gas, nicotine, boat oil, or humans. In fact, we give off a scent called L-serine that that is totally repulsive to fish.
To improve the odds of a b a s s sucking in a lure and swimming away with it, I think it helps to wash hands with Ivory soap before fishing, periodically run baits through the dishwasher, coat hands and line with a good bait scent, and rub lures on any fish you catch before releasing them.
Some of the more popular scents are Smelly Jelly, Bang, and Powerbait.
Fishing is a game of chance, and scent control is one of the items that help stack the odds in your favor.

[Drifter]

Hooker types, "In fact, we give off a scent called L-serine that that is totally repulsive to fish."

Some of us give off a scent that is totally repulsive to humans.

Hooker types some more, ".... periodically run baits through the dishwasher..."

If my wife ever found my fishing tackle in the dishwasher, she would have me committed!"

http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

Drifter

[davida]

Jeff-

While reviewing this thread, I noticed that I had failed to answer one of your questions regarding leaders.

I had previously stated that:

"It also means that the leader needs to be stiffer than the usual configuration. Most well-made leaders are built so that the tippet will fall with considerable slack to allow a dragless dead drift."

So how do one create a stiffer configured leader for bass?

Let's assume we are working with a standard knotless leader. Usually the leader will consist of 60 per cent butt, 20 per cent transition and 20 per cent tippet.

If we are using weighted flies, we can safely cut off the tippet section of the leader to get a stiffer connection that should make the leader lie quite straight when cast. The tipppet of a well-constructed leader creates the slack required for drag-free presentations.

All that's left to see is how one casts the chopped leader. If the presentation is a bit harsh for the conditions, the angler can add a short length of tippet to soften entry to match the conditions. This can be tied either by a blood or double surgeon's. (the blood is the superior knot, but the surgeon's is far easier to tie in the field. If the presentation is still a bit soft, then a bit more of the leader needs to be cut-off. Eventually the angler should arrive at a combination that is optimal for presenting that particular lure in that situation.

Some fanatical fly fishers change leaders to suit the situations encountered. Master nymher Joe Humphreys advocates this approach and Al McClane was another that advocated leader tinkering to achieve the precise presentation.

Many of us are not willing to go to such lengths in our fly fishing pursuits. However, some thought on our leader construction and design can improve the success ratio.

Before I end my comments on leaders, I should mention that level mono leaders can be very effective in certain situations. If a taper is not necessary for presentation or casting considerations, then a level leader can provide some advantages for the warm water fly fisher. By eschewing a taper, this leader can promote bite sensitivity and/or allow a deeper presentation. It should be noted that the casting and presentation advantages of tapered leaders considerably outweigh the miniscule advantages gained by the use of level leaders in most fly fishing situations.

So, if one is looking for better bite detection or straighter intial presentations in warm water situations, a level leader or a tippetless tapered leader should address the situation.

Regards, DA

[Hooker]

Drifter,
Join the crowd!

Old fishermen never die.....

Hooker

[Owl]

.....they just catch smaller fish. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

[FFing Duo]

....they just smell that way.... http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif

[ICHTHUS]

davida,
You say the blood knot is superior. I used it for many years, then found the double/triple surgeons. I use it now because like you say it's esier to tie. Does the blood have better strenght or is there another reason it's superior.
Ich

[davida]

Ichthus-

My experiences suggest that the blood knot is a stronger knot than the double or triple surgeon's knot. When I tie the knots, I find that my double or triple surgeon's knot is the weak point and that the rigging will always fail at that knot.

I always find that, at least when I tie both knots, that my blood knots are far stronger than my surgeon's knots. I've tried head to head tests and again find that the double and triple fail before a blood knot.

Despite this, I will use it in the field, especially in dwindling light, because it's the easiest knot to tie.

I should note that others have stated that these knots are comparable in strength.

In my case, I tend to tie blood knots before I go fishing and surgeon's knots when I'm fishing except when I've seen a particular situation where I want the most from my knots.

Regards, DA