In-Stream Improvements

[Tommy Hunter]

Bill,
When I was a child fishing in North Georgia with my father and grandfather, I can remember in-stream structures built to, I guess, improve holding water for trout. Streams such as Smith Creek, Spoilcane Creek, Rock Creek, and Dicks Creek (Chestatee WMA) among others. My question is: were these structures indeed built to improve trout habitat or other purposes? They seemed to help establish a real strong wild rainbow population on Spoilcane. I have noticed in recent years, that many of these structures have been destroyed by flooding, etc. Some of these creeks regularly produced 18" browns when the structures were in place, but since they were destroyed, the larger browns seem to have disappeared. Could rebuilding these structures on those creeks listed above help the trout, and if so, would it be something trout nuts like me could help with? I know TU does some of these things, but they only seem to do it on small, high mountain streams. Just wondering.

Thanks
Tommy

[Drifter]

Tommy,

I also remember seeing some of these structures. If my memory serves me, there were some on Sarah's Creek on Warwoman WMA. They consisted of logs and crossties stacked in an inverted "V" to create depth upstream, and a plunge pool below.

I believe some of these were old TU projects. Perhaps with some guidance from DNR, NGTO members could take on such a project.

The Drifter

[Tommy Hunter]

I'm game!

Tommy

[HNeal]

Sounds like a winning proposition to me!

[briggs]

I'm in

[NightOwl]

I'll supervise !!! No - kidding I'm in !!! hoot!

[SHAWN]

Sounds like a great idea. I vote yea.

[flytyfish]

When do we start. may even be able to get some materials donayed

[KB]

I'm in.

[BT]

The wife always says I have a strong back and a weak mind, just point me in the right direction.

[SHAWN]

Wouldn't be an increadible sight to be able and see a sign that says NGTO habitat improvement section.
Shawn

[NightOwl]

Talked to a Game Warden on Sun. and he said they wanted to have some in-stream improvements in Smith's! It may not be the ideal stream for iprovement , but-
#1 High profile - lots of anglers( of ALL kinds) would see the signs.
#2 We all talkabout wanting to help the DNR with the $$/manpower situation ,so here's a chance to help them and lower their costs.( by working on something they are already planning.)


Owl <><

[The Ole Man]

I like to sit on a stump, drink beer, smoke, and watch guys sweat. Sounds like fun to me.
Bubba

[Ken Smith]

I think they are called fish damns? I've seen one on the lower section of the Taccoa below the ****, near the old town of Kyle. A wall of rocks about 2/3 away across the river at an angle (obviously man-made). I was told they were built by the Indians. I'm not sure about that, but the wall of rocks does look like it's been there for many many years. (I have caught a few fish downstream from the wall)

ken

[KB]

Watch it Ole Man. We're talkin' about stream improvements, not The Deliverence...LOL

[Tommy Hunter]

Why don't we find out from Bill what DNR has planned at Smith's and help them out. Then, if we all get along and work together good as a group, we can move on to others. Like maybe the wild trout water on Smith's, or maybe a brown trout stream. I know of several decent sized creeks that have a lot of native 'bows in them that habitat improvement would have to help.

Tommy

[Jimmy Harris]

For those of you interested in participating in a stream structure work project, please look at the Events calendar. I think they were all posted & remain there.

JH

[Tommy Hunter]

In response to Jimmy's post. There is a TU stream project on 3-13, but I would rather do one with NGTO. It's sometimes hard for bait fishermen to work with devout TU'ers. Just a thought. I've done it before.

Tommy

[CHUNKER]

Sounds like a good time,I'm in!

[Bill Couch]

Tommy and many others,
Stream structure work on Forest Service Land is done in conjunction with the U.S. Forest Service. However, anything on Smith Creek will be Ga DNR's responsibility. I've asked for information and will post in the next few days.

[NightOwl]

Ken,the fish thingies we are talking about( I think) are poles set in small streams to make plunge pools - Although, Indian rock walls would be an original thing for a project! http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Owl

[Bird Dog]

I hesitate in writing this in the fear of sounding like a "know-it-all" but I do know a little about the subject. I should, as I am an ex-fisheries biologist with the USFS and in the last fifteen years I've helped build at least 150 stream structures. Some things you guys might want to know...
Stream structures have been around a long time. Monte Seehorn (retired USFS biologist) was one of the first men to build structures in GA. He literally wrote the book on it.
See "USDA Forest Service Technical Publication R8-TP 16, Stream Habitat Improvement Handbook by Monte Seehorn, Published June 1992".
Here are some cons:
Stream structures are extremely hand labor intensive. A crew of 6 to 8 people can typically build 2 to 4 structures in an 8 hour work day. You will get very dirty in the process. And if your accustomed to sitting in an office all day your going to have some sore muscles!
Structures are NOT a cure all. And to make any difference at a population level, large numbers must be built.
Structures are very prone to fail, i.e. be washed away. Streams are very dynamic and currents are constantly cutting and filling channels, often leaving your log structure either buried or high and dry.
Now for some of the pros:
Structures do indeed add wood to a stream, which is always a good thing. They'll provide cover for fish and attachment or hiding places for invertebrates.
Structures can last for decades, if they are designed and installed properly.
Last, and best of all, structure projects can bring volunteers together for a common purpose. Developing working relationships between the public, DNR, and USFS. This is often worth more than the habitat improvements!!
I recommend anyone truely interested in doing these types of projects to join Trout Unlimited, as we do many of these types of projects (and contrary to many misconceptions, bait fishermen are always welcome, at least in the Rabun)
Chapter!).
Hope all this was helpful. Good luck guys! KHB

[The Ole Man]

Thanks Bird Dog. I have serious doubts that stream improvements are worth the effort for Smith's Creek since it is only a temorary winter habitat for stock trout. Do you know of any progress in getting access to Mountaintown Creek at the locked gate? I know Coosa Valley TU gives this a whack occassionally. Might be something we could focus on for now.

[Tommy Hunter]

Thanks B.D. I am used to sitting in an office all day with my feet propped up. The weekends are a little different though. I think I would still like for us to give this a shot. It would be fun and give us a chance to make a good impression on the public. Smith's would be a good place to practice (easy to reach and very visible). Let's see what Bill has to say when he gets through getting the information he's looking for.

Tommy

[Tommy Hunter]

One other thought about the dynamics of streams. They no doubt change from rain storm to rain storm, but I have found a way to control some of that with the structures I have built for my private use. I have covered my wood structures (usually telephone poles) with old carpet with the fibers down and then piled rocks or dirt on the front side of the dam. It will last for years and prevents undermining by water (acts a lot like silt fence except water doesn't p****through it as easily). I don't know if this would be allowed in mountain streams--B.D. or Bill would know--but it is effective.

Tommy

[SHAWN]

The Ole Man is right about smith's creek. I don't think that Habitat improvement would be the best of ideas on heavily stocked streams. We should focus on streams that recaive light stocking to no stocking at all. These are the streams that would need improvement. If you look at TU's imorovements, they are mainly on more remote or wild streams.
Shawn

[BT]

I think The Ole Man is also right about Mountian Town creek, while the Coosa Valley chapter of T.U. has done many improvements on this stream there's lots of room for many more.

[jeffg]

The one problem I see on improving Smiths Creek, what happens if they have to open the dam gates?? Will the structures be instantly swept out???

I have been frequently MountainTown as of late.. The instream structures have provided a ton of good water, and
most of them are still in place(wasnt there when they put em in, but doesnt look like they have shifted around etc....)
But gate is still closed. It is a short hike though.

WHAT ABOUT././/waters creek. With all of the downed trees in the water, how bout using some of the downed trees as channel makers/controllers?.
I have only been in GA for 3 yrs. But I have noticed within 3 yrs that Waters creek has been getting shallower and shallower. I have heard it was once the premier fishery for big trout in this state ( i still think it is a *****good fishery!!! caught keeper last year). But by adding more stream structures to that one may assist in bringing it back to the trophy status it once had. Especially now that Dukes and Smiths, Hootch Bend at Unicoi outfitters, Soque etc. have come to everyones attentions. It may be a good move to divert effort and attention back to Waters. It would help take the pressure off other streams ( maybe, maybe not).

Or how about Dukes below the Raven Cliff wilderness area. Even though there is some great water, some improvements would make it even better. The bow population is good, but could always use some help. So above the falls to the end of Raven Cliffs where Dodd and Bear Den come together?

Or last but not least....West Fork Montgomery?

[Bird Dog]

Ole Man,
I don't know about Mountain Town Creek. It's out of my area.

Tommy,
Using carpet sounds interesting. How long have your structures been in place? The USFS uses hog wire with hardware cloth on top of that. Works very well. The biggest problem with the K Dam or Wedge Dam (those are the most common designs) is that often the ends of the logs that go into the bank are not anchored well enough and if the banks erode the water will cut around them and "blow" them out one day in a heavy rain. For this reason dams must be built in very small streams which seldom cut out of their established channels. They are in no way possible in streams the size of the Chattahoochee (expect in the extreme headwaters).
There are many other types of log structures too. The Cover Log is the most common. This is simply a log placed along a bank and anchored with rebar or cabled to the bank. It is very effective in providing overhead fish cover without severely changing the hydraulics of a stream.
Any of you Smith Creek Delayed Harvest fishermen ever notice those big boulders in the middle of the creek in the section between the upper foot bridge and the waste water pond? Those were placed there on purpose. You can thank Jeff Durniak (GA DNR Trout Biologist) for that! (I also happened to be there too :)

[Tommy Hunter]

Bird Dog,
I have some structures on my grandmothers creek that have been in place for over ten years. The creek is extremely small but has a large water shed with high runoff coefficients and therefore has a lot of scouring for a creek that size. The structures are small too, but it is all relative. The areas in the banks where the strutures tie to are covered with the carpet about ten feet up and down stream which keeps the banks from eroding. Discovered that trick by trial and error. Could show you some of them if you would like. They are located in Oakwood, Georgia (just south of Gainesville).

Tommy

[NightOwl]

Shawn, OLe Man, and others - you guys are puttin the cart out font - Smith's may not be your choice, but since the word( for now) is that they are alreay thinking about it...........

Anyway, who says that with the proper stream improvements, Smith's won't hold fish year-round ? Someone at the DNR ( according to the 2 game wardens I spoke with) thinks the water will be cool enough to support them ... BTW - Correct me if I'm wrong( and BOY, have I been sometimes! ) but there are no " gates" on the dam - it just runs over the top when full. I think. Good cold water and in-stream structures could mean more than a DH fishery. Let's just wait on Bill and let the horse stay in the barn a little longer.
PS Are TU guys offended that another group wants to do stream habitat improvm.?? I hope not. We should be working together when and if it happens. Long live NGTO and TU !!!

[The Ole Man]

NO
My comments were based on what Bill Couch has already said about Smith's. Pull down about 18 threads and read "Delayed Harvest" posted by Richard. Bill said "....fish are expected to be harvested before summer water temps stress them". I'm assuming stress them means kill, since he then goes on to say "These streams would not normally be stocked in the summer or winter." I'm not trying to kill the Smith idea. As you said before, there may be reasons other than the fishery to do a project there. Such as practice or highlighting NGTO in a highly visible arena.
Can't help but feel though, that a project would be for stream esthetics and not for the fishery. Seems there is virtually no fishery there. Esthetics may be reason enough.

[Jimmy Harris]

The projects planned for Smith Creek will accomplish a couple of objectives. The first phase will most likely not be an instream structure. There are some serious bank erosion problems as a result of the intensive use the area is receiving. We'll probably work on restoring those first. Another benefit will likely be good PR. Folks will be able to see a positive working relationship between two government agencies & a conservation organization; doing something that is good for the resource as well as the user.

There will be some type of instream structure work done later. Those of you who are concerned with the validity of this effort are encouraged to visit the picnic area on Smith Creek just upstream from the lake (on the road to Anna Ruby Falls). Those structures were placed there several years ago by TU to create more holding areas for the trout so folks could take their kids fishing there. Sure, Smith Creek may not be the premier trout stream in Georgia, but I've seen some pretty excited young folks standing in that creek with a trout & a smile. I think it was a worthwhile project.

While I'm here I'm going to climb on my soapbox for Trout Unlimited. There seem to be some misconceptions about the organization. As Bird Dog stated about the Rabun Chapter, the Foothills Chapter doesn't discourage anyone from joining us; regardless of the method of fishing they employ. Heck, if our chapter were limited to flyfishing only we would lose two-thirds of our members! And we currently have over 100 members. Secondly, if you wonder what TU is about, join us at one of the many kids' fishing rodeos, or visit the Soque River Outdoor Classroom (an integral part of the Habersham County School System that was conceived, instigated, promoted, & constructed by the Foothills Chapter of TU), take a look at some of the access platforms constructed by TU to allow handicapped access to some of the trout streams in GA, talk with one of the summer interns employed by the Forest Service to do trout stream improvement work & paid for with local TU funds, or fish the Chattooga River between Burrell's Ford bridge & Hwy. 28 & catch fish after fish that was stocked by the Forest Service helicopter & paid for in part by TU dollars. Shoot, if I weren't already a member I'd be trying to figure out how I could join this organization!

Thanks for listening.

JH

[The Ole Man]

Owly Bird
When you said long live NGTO and TU, I had a thought (and that is dangerous). Maybe we should form an NGTO chapter of TU. A totally on-line chapter. Perhaps the first on-line chapter in the nation? Think TU national might like that. As if Aaron doesn't already have enough on his plate. Sri Aaron.

[NightOwl]

I like the idea ( except for the reocurring " dues".) but I would wonder if we were biting offmore trout than we could chew ? As for Smith's........hmmmm.

[The Ole Man]

If Jimmy likes it, I like it. Bird Dog, we expect you to provide the doughnuts for us "office boys".

[SHAWN]

You never know Ole Man, My father helped to start the first international chapter of trout unlimited in cashmire, India back around 1971 or so. An online chapter would be cool but there are a lot of people in here and inperson meetings would be difficult, but who knows.
Shawn

[Bird Dog]

I'd be glad to bring the donuts! They make good carp bait when squashed tightly onto a bait hook.
Nothing wrong with working in an office now and again either. I liked to froze my tail off yesterday! (I'm a GPS surveyor) I'll take climate contolled heating over -10 wind chill any day!
But seriously, anyone interested in helping build stream structures for fun should seriously consider getting involved with Trout Unlimited. It's big fun!

[Jimmy Harris]

Ole Man,

Aaron & I have previously discussed an on-line TU chapter. I think it would work but the powers that be in TU have some legitimate questions. Such as, how would a person be assigned to this new chapter? Currently, unless you specify a chapter, you are assigned by zip code. Obviously, with this format, zip codes won't work. I'm sure there's also some feeling of "we've never done that before!" I'm of the opinion that if you're doing it the way you've always done it, you're probably doing it the wrong way! I'll keep pushing it.

Jimmy

[KB]

The online TU chapter has crossed my mind several times as well.
Just think of what kind of impact the members of NGTO could make. I'm not sure of how many members there are, but I am certain that most of us are conservation minded.
There are losts of different folks from all sides of the spectrum here that would represent the best intrests of our local cold waters.
I think if a group specifically geared towards cold water conservation was organized, and specific agendas and goals were established, I believe TU would support it. Even if they didn't, it certainly would'nt be wasted time and energy.

[Tom]

For a young'un, Jimmy Harris does come across. He says what I want to say but seem to just irritate members of NGTO. I read all these comments regarding trout habitat improvement and what should be done or what needs to be done. Well, darn it, TU has been doing it and we have been doing it for a long time.
Then the next thing you read is elitist this or elitist that...in all the years I've been a member of TU do you think I just happily endorse everything TU National does? Of course not. Not anymore than I endorse all the Republicans or all the Chamber or all of any group stands for.
Each TU chapter is different from the other. The chapter reflects the membership.
TU needs dedicated trout fishermen to fend off the forces that don't give a darn about trout or their habitat. If you fish with stick bait; if you fish with crankbaits; if you fish with the fly, stand up and be counted or we are going to lose it all. Maybe not in my lifetime but not in the too distant future. Argue about how to fish over the campfire. Argue about whether to keep a few or release them all over a beer.
If it will make everyone happy, personally I'll cover my TU patch while we work on a mutually beneficial project together.
Thanks again, Jimmy. Keep me on an even keel.Tom

[Jimmy Harris]

Tom,

I think you just said it all; we need to work together. You & I know that "elitist" is sort of a reverse discrimination term thrown at TU on occasion. I laugh when I hear it used & think of Nugget or Dave Burton, cooking up a great campfire meal of trout & all the trimmings for all us "elitists" at the next chapter campout. Oh well, just have to bring some of these young whippersnappers into the fold & show them; we just like to fish for trout.

Hope to see you at the Legislative Buffer Zone Committee meeting tomorrow.

JH

[NightOwl]

Mr. Harris, Mr.Landreth and all NGTo members and leaders. I honestly mean no disrespect,but I have thought it through and will ( once again, to the dismay of many) voice my opinion in a post entitled " Why NGTO?".

Owl