Double Haul Timing

[bencmyers]

I wanted to get some of y’alls opinions on the timing of a hauls during your casting stroke. When do you start and when do you end the haul relative to stopping the rods acceleration?

I am trying to gather some information on this for a school project that I will be doing over the summer with a professor in Michigan. I know that there are many differing opinions on what works best so we are going to get some data to figure out finally what works best.

Thanks.

Ben

[Scott Swartz]

Ben,

You wouldn't be talking about Noel Perkins would you? I just had the opportunity to use his computer casting analyzer. Bruce Richards brought it down and we were able to get the casting signatures for AFFS instructors and some of Calloway's instructors. I'll await others input before I give my thoughts on the haul. If it's Nole you'll work with you will have it down as a mathematical equation and plotted on graphs as wave lengths. Have Fun.

Scott Swartz


[This message has been edited by Scott Swartz (edited 01-10-2004).]

[bencmyers]

Yeah I will be working with Dr. Perkins. I talked with Bruce briefly about the project at the UCCTU meeting, and then contacted Dr. Perkins while on a visit to the University of Michigan. I met with Dr. Perkins yesterday about doing a research project with him and he said he was interested in working on the double haul. He had a student working on the project previously but they could not get a device that would accurately measure line speed.

The results of the project will be in the form of data or graphs from which we can measure timing and line speed created. From these we will get an idea of what is the most efficient timing, also, how much the double haul directly affects the flexing/loading of the rod.

While I am not working on the project I hope to get some steelhead, trout and small mouth fishing in. Maybe I will even get a chance to fish with Bruce.

Ben Myers

[Ty]

I am posting a response to this with a bit of hesitation. I am not FFF certified and I am no authority, but I am posting as a student who is still working out the timing of my hauls.

I try to delay the haul until the last few inches of the casting stroke. Specifically, I try to start the haul with the power snap and then stop the haul when I stop the rod. I keep my hands together throughout most of the stroke. Delaying the haul seems to be a common thread that runs through most of the instruction, both written and verbal, that I have studied. It seems work for me anyway.

This is a great thread and I look forward to reading the posts of more experienced casters to get their takes on this.

Ty Goodwin

[Fire Walker]

mis-post

[This message has been edited by Fire Walker (edited 01-12-2004).]

[Kent]

Two (or 3) schools of thought here.

Lefty says the haul should be short, happening during the speed-up-and-stop, and echo the speed of the s-u-a-s.

Krieger, Wulff & others says that haul should echo the casting stroke, ie short hauls for short strokes and long hauls for long strokes.

There is also the "thumb haul." Line is held extending out across the thumb, haul is made traditionally but at the end of the haul stroke the wrist is snapped and the thumb extension really accelerates the end of the haul. Gary Taylor showed me this one & he does it well.

Another school of thought says the haul should continue just past the stop of the rod to the point that the rod reaches a straight postion. This gets fairly complicated, is related to max line speed, and perhaps has some effect on dampening the counter-flex (rebound) of the rod.

There is also some question about exactly what the haul does - increase load on the rod or increase line speed? Try this - make short casts with a tight a loop as possible, both with and without a haul. I bet the loops are tighter with the haul. So did you load the rod more?



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Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://www.flyfishga.com)

[Ty]

Kent,

Interesting stuff. In my last post I was considering only hauls used for distance and when carrying a lot of line. The "short stroke- short haul" wasn't something I had thought about until you mentioned it. I do find myself giving the line short quick hauls when on-stream and casting with short lengths of line (under 40 feet). This is something I do pretty much subconsciously. These short hauls have just become a natural part of my casting stroke when I am fishing. As you say, it definitely tightens the loops. How do you time your hauls in the casting stroke?

Ty

[Windknot]

Ditto Ty. I subconsciously do little downward "wrist flicks" most (all???) the time during the speedup-and-stop.
Don

[This message has been edited by Windknot (edited 01-13-2004).]

[Kent]

Ty -

I time the haul differently depending on what I'm trying to do. But on longer casts, generally it is spread thru the latter half of the cast. It begins well before the power snap, probably about half way then accelerates at the s-u-a-s.

If I'm throwing a hook curve or something, it might just be a quick power snap.

Carl and I marveled at Gary Borger's haul when he was at Callaway- Carl said it looked like he was playing a violin. Smooth as silk.




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Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://www.flyfishga.com)

[Ty]

Kent,

I did a little double-hauling practice last night with your comments in mind. From what I could tell, my hands begin separating just after the rod passes the perpendicular position in the stroke. I guess this means I am actually starting the haul prior to the power snap. It seems that most of the haul takes place in the power snap though. At least that's my perception. I'll have to get the video camera out to really see when things are taking place. I said in my first post that I try to put haul in the last few inches of the stroke. It's probably more accurate to say that I try to put the majority of the speed and power in the stroke in the last few inches. But I am definitely starting the haul earlier than what I thought. Thanks for your comments on that.

Ty

[Kent]

Well, shucks....I'm disappointed nobody else is willing to give their opinion on this. I know somebody's got one.

[fish]

Ok, Ok, I'll chime in.

When I first learned to haul, I hauled just prior to the stopping of the rod on the stroke. This gives that rod a bit more load and thus the line more speed. This is how I hauled when I took my test and it worked beatifully. The master's giving me the test said my haul was great and looked effortless. With that in mind you would think, why would I want to change it.

Answer: because sometimes I have too much time on my hands and I start to think. It is dangerous when I start to think. I am now of the belief, after some in depth discussion with Robert Hafner, that a haul is done throughout the entire casting stroke loading the rod much more than my present style. This is done no matter the distance. The haul mirrors the stroke.

I have not tried this haul as of yet. I may never adopt it, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Ty]

Hey guys,

Glad to see this thread cranking back up again.

When I began to attempt to learn the correct timing (and believe me I'm still learning) of the double-haul, I found that most accomplished casters advocated delaying the haul until the end of the stroke. I have seen video footage of several elite casters and they seem to delay the haul until the end of the stroke.

So I have always focused on delaying the hauls and I have made a conscious effort in practicing the double-haul to keep my hands to together throughout the first half of the stroke. This seems to work for me and just feels right.

I am interested in the concept of the "haul mirroring the stroke". I have heard of this before and I have experimented with it. I can't pull it off. It seems awkward when I haul throughout the casting stroke. My perception is that I don't have as much power and speed at the end of the cast. I'd love to hear more from the guys that haul throughout the stroke. Looking forward to your comments.

Ty

[DAWGFISH]

I have always timed my hauls to mirror the casting stoke, but this is always done subconsciously. In other words I start and stop the haul as I start and stop the casting strokes. Like alot of you I found I was doing this without even thinking about it, as I have been hauling before I even knew what hauling was. Maybe it's because I'm part Italian and like to talk with my hands or something. I think it was because I started saltwater flyfishing just shortly after I started flyfishing period, so I was always looking for ways to increase my distance, or punch through the wind. This was before I really started reading any books or magazines, or watching videos and experienced casters. I was fishing with a buddy one day and he pointed out that I was really getting active with my hands while casting. I later learned that I was double hauling and started reading all of the different theories of short hauls verses long hauls, when to haul, etc. After reading this I tried all the different timings and length of hauls and it just neve felt comfortable to me. I went back to doing what was confortable-that is having the hauls mirror the casting stroke. I think casting is a lot like a baseball or golf swing, there are basics of the cast or swing that all persons proficient in their craft adhere to, but after that every person has their personel nuances that are more confortable for them and may not apply to others. Timing the haul withthe cast is just plain more confortable and efffective for me. Just my 2 pesos.

[Rocketroy]

I am also a hesitant contributor to this haul discussion,and only want to add,thatI think,when the haul is most effective is very dependent on the Rod being used! For instance,a high performance rod,designed, for distance/competition casting will require a fast application of haul/loading, whereas a typical fishing rod, with a lot of tip flex,while saving a good hook set,when fishing,will be most effectively hauled thruout the stroke!{ safely! }The whole function of hauling,in order to affect distance,is to load the rod deep into the butt section,where the most rod energy is stored! Line speed,being a combination of the mass wt. of the line, evenly delivered by the rod unloading,on a particular path. As one contributor stated,thinking interferes often,with the feel aspect of casting,.......and as one whose goal is to score well in the 2004 F/F masters,should my team be invited,Hauling is one technique I am working on regularly,since the 70 ft. competition targets require a smooth haul to present a fly to a 2 ft. bullseye,while hundreds watch,and cameras grind! To all you pro.s out there,feel free to correct me,if I,m off base with these comments:Since posting my theories is my inalienable right, as an " UAMERICAN"! Regards to all-yu all.... Rocketroy of Clarkesville

[bencmyers]

I'd like to thank everyone for there input on this subject, its definitely an interesting one.

I’d like to pose a question. Do you think that the direct effect of hauling is increased line speed, which in turn increases loading of the rod or vice versa?

Ben

[Kent]

Ben, now you're getting to the interesting part (line speed vs rod load). Come on Scott, where are you? Carl? Robert? Jimmy?

Rocket Roy, I think you're right about smooth hauls with soft rods (at least, I think that's part of what you said).

------------------
Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://www.flyfishga.com)

[fish]

Hauling increases the loading of the rod which in turn increases the line speed when the line is cast. That is the position I am taking.

[Robert Hafner]

Ok, I'll chime in. As Fish stated, the haul has to mirror the casting stroke. Long stroke, long haul, short stroke, short haul. I wish I could take credit for this but this I got from a Bruce Richards article. And was also shown this from a few notable instructors. Make sure that when the rod tip stops, the haul stops. If you wait to haul till the end stroke, think what will happen to the tip and the line. It will cause what we all do not want to have, a tailing loop.

[Sea Foam]

Ok, what happens when you double haul using a 3 wt full flex rod overlined with a 4wt line? Is there an increased distance using the double haul verses just shooting the line, if the rod is essentially already fully loaded? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif

Jeff

[Ty]

I'd like to clarify what is meant by the haul mirroring the stroke. I take it to mean that the haul begins as the stroke begins and ends as the stroke ends.

If this is the correct definition, I don't mirror the stroke with my hauls. I've tried this and my loops open up and I feel like I have a lot less power and speed at the end of the cast. So I don't begin my hauls with the stroke. I delay the hauls until later in the stroke - theoretically after the rod butt passes perpendcular.

However, if mirroring the stroke involves only the length of the haul vs. the length of the stroke, then that is another matter. I do use short hauls for short casts (wrist flicks is how windknot put it and I think that's a pretty good description) and longer hauls for long casts. In all cases I try to end the haul with the stop of the rod, I just delay initiation of the haul.

I guess the question in my mind then is not about the stroke length vs. the haul length. The question has to do with the placement of the haul itself. Where do you begin the haul - with the beginning of the stroke or delayed until the middle of the stroke? And why? Again, looking forward to your comments.

Ty

[Robert Hafner]

Ty, if you're opening up your loops when you haul during the whole stroke, then the rod tip is not moving in a straight line path. For tight loops, the rod tip must move in the straightest line possible. Remember the rod tip starts slow then speeds up till it reaches the end of the stroke then abruptly stops. You're haul should reflect that rod motion. And yes, if at the stop of the stroke, you flick or turn the wrist over reflect that in the haul too. Here's why tailing loops happen when a haul is done in the middle or the end of the stroke: picture the rod tip bending from the weight of the line during the stroke as its coming forward or backward (provided the tip is moving in a staight path) when you haul in the middle or at the end of the stroke, that puts more of a bend in the rod and the tip dips below that straight line path and has now formed a concave path and Voila! A beautiful tailing loop. If you start the haul when the stroke starts, then the amount of bend in the rod is at its greatest throughout the entire casting stroke. Now at the stop of the stroke, immediately stop the haul and follow the line up (kent has a great exercise to show this). Some instructors use the term "down up" to describe how to haul.

[Ty]

Hey Robert,

Thanks for your comments. I am pretty thoroughly confused at this point. I'm just going to have to get someone to videotape my casting to determine precisely when I am starting my hauls. My perception is that I am not hauling until later in the cast.

To watch this I cast with the rod moving parallel to the ground. This way I have a good view of my hands. I really try to keep my hands together for the first half of the stroke. Then I move the rod to 45 degrees for a few casts and finally to vertical. My loops are not tailing at all. Again, my perception is that I am keeping my hands together throughout the first half of the cast, but maybe I am mistaken on this. The video camera should tell me.

Also, I am looking at The Essentials of Flycasting, the book by Bill and Jay Gammell. In the section on double hauling there are several photos of Bill (I assume) doing the double haul. In one photo he is accelerating into the backcast. The rod butt has passed perpendicular so he appears to be well into the cast. His line hand is still next to the reel, maybe 2 or 3 inches from his rod hand. The haul seems to be just getting started.

In another photo, he is accelerating into the forward cast and the rod butt is well past perpendicular. In fact he must be very close to the stop given the position of the rod in the photo. His hands are still fairly close together, 10-12 inches or so. It looks like he hasn't hauled very far even that late into the cast.

So I guess I don't know what to think at this point. I think I'm going to forget the whole thing for a few days and go fishing. This is a great discussion. Thanks again for your comments.

Ty

[Kent]

Robert & Ty -

I'm don't think that a (proper) haul at end of the stroke (during s-u-a-s, or even continuing past it) will give you a tail. If the haul (like the stroke) accelerates all the way to its end, it will not cause a concave rod-tip path & will not tail.

I also think that the haul does more than load the rod. Watch Rex or Jason cast without the rod - h@llacious hauls with no rod to load. Linespeed!



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Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://www.flyfishga.com)

[Robert Hafner]

Kent, I do think the whole point to double hauling is for higher line speed and for increased rod loading. As for tailing loops they are made by only one thing, a concaved rod path. If you can avoid this rod path during any cast. No tail. And as you know this is the cast with the most controversy behind it. So many schools of thought on this one.

[DAWGFISH]

This is kind of like the old which came first discussion.....the increased rod loading or the increased line speed, as opposed to the chicken and the egg. I'm definitely on the increased rod loading results in increased linespeed school of thought, but who knows I think I'll reread this post tonight after some heavy drinking and see if things change in the zen state.

[jeffg]

Maybe I am missing something, but what is the difference between doing a double haul and/or shooting line on your backcast, using that backward shoot to load the rod, increase your line speed so that when you go to move the force going forward you get a better bend and higher rod load, and you dont have to do the pull on the forward movement ( load) to shoot the line for extra distance??

[Kent]

Jeff, good point. Backcast shoot does indeed increase rod load on suceeding forward cast. The haul on the backcast will increase the load (and the linespeed) on the backcast - that will enable you to shoot more line on that backcast. There's no reason they have to be mutually exclusive - why not do both.

How much rod loading has to do with power of the cast is debatable. Guess you can see I'm on this line speed thing. Consider the bow and arrow cast - that's a rod loading cast. How far can you throw it?

Tho' very few casters can load a rod to the butt, I think the haul can increase line speed even if the rod is loaded the max. By pulling on the line as the rod stops, we increase the line's speed in the direction of the cast. Then at the moment of the stop, the line has more momentum (mass x velocity squared).

I know this gets pretty theoretical (and my theory may be wrong). Plus, like Ty says, it's pretty hard to figure out exactly what you're doing where (even with video).



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Kent
Flyfishing West Georgia & Beyond (http://www.flyfishga.com)

[jeffg]

Another question though, if you did load the rod to the butt ( and some full flex rods, you can feel it load almost to that point), does the chances for a tailing loop increase?

Tailing loops are typically created by a concave type casting stroke ( ie.e dropping the rod tip as you power forward thru the stroke,as mentioned in a previous post) but if you flex the rod that much, wouldnt that make the cast almost concave since the bend of the rod is so great that it would increase the line speed but force the line to come forward at a lower angle to the tip, therefore forcing a tailing loop??

I guess what I am getting at, is there a point that you overpower your rod that you actually cause casting problems?>?

[Sea Foam]

Jeff

That was the point I was was trying to make
that, with a full flex rod, do you reach a point of diminishing return? I know very little about this, but the article In fly fisherman about the casting analyzer , (took me a couple of hours to digest) was very informative. The question of load and line speed intrigued me (sp) so I took a full flex rod out in the yard and tried to see if I could extend the cast with a double haul. Obviously I am a beginner, http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
Also, thanks Kent and Robert for all your info. Thats a really good article about Rod Creep by the way.

Jeff

[Sea Foam]

Jeff

That was the point I was was trying to make
that, with a full flex rod, do you reach a point of diminishing return? I know very little about this, but the article In fly fisherman about the casting analyzer , (took me a couple of hours to digest) was very informative. The question of load and line speed intrigued me (sp) so I took a full flex rod out in the yard and tried to see if I could extend the cast with a double haul. Obviously I am a beginner, http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
Also, thanks Kent and Robert for all your info. Thats a really good article about Rod Creep by the way.

Jeff

[Kent]

Don't think the haul will cause a tail if properly applied, even if the rod were loaded well into the butt (if haul timing is correct). With a slower rod, the stroke length would have to be extended to a maximum.

And I don't think there are many (if any) casters that actually lod the rod to its max. Picture yourself hooked up to a really big fish - does your rod bend like this when casting?

Or consider the shooting head - I use the equivalent of an 11 wt on my 8. Those of you who threw it a the Fling now that one backcast and it is loaded to the max or very near. But a haul here will help the cast.

Back to something I mentioned earlier in the thread - with a short, crisp haul on a short cast, you can actually throw a tighter loop than without the haul. This seems to indicate that the rod has been bent less, so what the haul is doing is increasing line speed without further loading (bending) the rod.

[Rocketroy]

Durn,This thread is out of control! Bout ready to dust off the non-thinking man,s weapon,{just jesting}..... my old spinning rod! Such thoughtful examination and theory, will surely cost me distance and accuracy, in my next practice session! So, to fill that little spot in your gray matter, that is unoccupied...... try this one, since I don,t remember it being mentioned..... re. hauling: reasons...control/minimization/elimination of line *SLACK in the casting process.....to be avoided in any step of flinging! Jest tryin to be helpful,Am I? .... Rocketroy of Clarkesville {*back cast shooting, it seems to me is helpful, in the slack thing too. }

[Warmouth]

Dang, how did I miss this whole entire thread? I must have been hibernating.

Jeff and SeaFoam. Loading the rod, even loading it to the max, via the haul will not cause a tail in and of itself. Even with a very soft rod. Loading the rod at the wrong time, i.e. at the beginning of the casting stroke will. I have a 6 1/2 foot, one ounce, 2 weight superfine that I often use to practice hauling. It is great for self analysis because it does load so easily and it becomes very apparent where my problems occur in relation to the application of power.

Ty, it is interesting that you find that your loops open up when you mirror the haul with the casting stroke and are tighter when you delay the haul. That would seem counter-intuitive to most people. My first reaction was that you almost certainly had to be moving the tip in a convex path without realizing it. But I also wonder if you might be mirroring the strokes in TIMING but not in POWER. Try an experiment and let us know what happens. Put out about 30-40 feet of line. Try lessening the power you apply with your casting hand (do it dramatically, make it feel like you are REALLY under-powering the rod but still make a smoooooth accelerataion), and at the same time dramatically increase the power of your haul hand. Do it smoothly, but "harder" than you normally would think appropriate. In other words try making the cast almost entirely with your line hand. In terms of timing, begin the left and right hand at the same time and end at the same time. What happens? My bet is that the loops get super tight. If not, try it even more dramtically. Let rod just kind of go along for the ride while the line hand does the work.

It's hard to comment on the pictures you have of Gammel without seing them, but I know his position on this topic. He asked me to describe the timing, power, etc of the haul during the masters test. In a nutshell I said that the haul hand should mirror the rod hand in length, speed, and timing. He said "Yes, and don't ever let anybody ever tell you anything different!" I wouldn't quite go that far but I do belive that to be correct too.

Carl

[Warmouth]

P.S.

May I digress a bit? Have any of you with kids ever seen the Spongebob Squarepants episode called "Bubblestand." (I told you I was going to digress.) It is hilarious. Spongebob gives bubble blowing lessons for 25 cents and is very adamant about the TECHNIQUE. Anyone who has ever been involved in a discussion about the technical aspects of casting, or anything else for that matter, cannot help but laugh at themselves after watching it. It's worth renting just to see that part.

Just thought I'd lighten it up a little.

Carl

[This message has been edited by Warmouth (edited 01-24-2004).]

[Sea Foam]

For me, I think its line speed and rod load. I dont word things well here and I think come accross the wrong way. What do I know anyway http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gifSeriously !! But I am starting to understand this even though I cant do it yet. Using the full flex with a haul added several feet. I'm going fishing, what a beutifulllllll day.

[Ty]

Hey Carl,

Thanks for your input. I'll definitely try your suggestion and try to take the rod hand out of the cast as much as possible. I'll let you know how it turns out. I have been playing around with hauling throughout the stroke since this thread started. I am finding that my muscles are so trained to haul late in the stroke, I really have to think about it to start the haul with the stroke. Anyway, I'll play around with it some more with your suggestions in mind.

As for the pictures of Bill Gammel, they are in Essentials of Flycasting. I would like to have someone else take a look at the photos and give me his or take. This book is available from the FFF for 3.00. It has a lot of great info.

And here is something else I have been thinking about. One thing I have always heard is that the faster the haul, the more effective it is. Especially in regard to distance casting. My thinking is that the caster would have to slow down the haul if he hauled throughout the entire stroke as opposed to delaying the haul. At least initially.
Let's say for the sake of argument that we have a stroke length of 3 feet and and a haul length of 3 feet. If the haul mirrors the stroke, then the hauling hand would cover that 3 feet in the same time that the rod hand covers its 3 feet. Both hands hit the three foot mark at the same time and stop. Ok, now let's take these same lengths and make another cast, but with the haul delayed until the second half of the stroke. That means that the hauling hand would have to travel its 3 feet after the rod hand had already travelled 1.5 feet in the stroke. The hauling hand would have to move much faster since it would only have half the time to cover its 3 feet if it is to again stop at the same time the rod hand does.

Or is this irrelevant as long as the hauling hand reaches maximum speed at the same time the rod hand does?

Is this faulty thinking on my part? Should I forget all of this and take up golf instead?

Ty

[Kent]

Ty, I just took a look at those photos of Bill Gamel.
-----------------------
"... In one photo he is accelerating into the backcast. The rod butt has passed perpendicular so he appears to be well into the cast. His line hand is still next to the reel, maybe 2 or 3 inches from his rod hand. The haul seems to be just getting started...."

That is Figure 12b I think.. Note on Figure 12a that his line hand began well in front of the reel, so in fact he has hauled several inches at this point. Also note that his line hand is off to the side, so from photo's angle we may not see how far he has actually hauled.
---------------------------
"In another photo,he is accelerating into the forward cast and the rod butt is well past perpendicular. In fact he must be very close to the stop given the position of the rod in the photo. His hands are still fairly close together, 10-12 inches or so. It looks like he hasn't hauled very far even that late into the cast."

Fig 12e, I think. Remember that on the forward cast the rod hand and the hauling hand are both moving forward during the start of the cast. Also note on Figure 12d that as he "gives back" at the end of the backcast, his hand has again moved beyond the reel.

(Man, he does bend that rod, doesn't he. I heard him say he practices with a 4' piece of rebarto build arm strength.)
---------------------------------

I think Gammel answers your question in the text - "...then, as the rod is accelerated into the backcast, pull down on the line with the line hand. Do not pull any longer than the casting stroke."

As far as "starting the haul with the stroke, don't make too much of that. I think that most of us do that to some extent or another without conscious thought. Especially on the forward cast when we must - if our line hand extended to the rod at the end of the backcast, we must bring it forward as we start the forward cast (even though it is not pulling line in the beginning when both hands are on the same track).

On the backcast, I think it is important to delay or slow down the early part of the haul as here our hands track in different directions.

Rocket Roy, your mention of slack is a good point. However I think that while a haul can be used to remove slack from the cast, that really a waste of its true purpose. Better to not allow the slack by using good technique, then use the haul to speed the line and load the rod.

You're right about something else Roy - this is out of control!

Your truly,
spongebob

[Scott Swartz]

Wow, I leave town for 8 days and the casting forum heats up. I just got back from Venezuela’s Amazon chasing peacock bass. Talk about double haul practice throwing 2/0 poppers all day in the wind in search of the 13 1/2+ pound record fish. I really need to get caught up before jumping in too deep in this debate but want to let you know that the photos you are looking at of Bill Gammell’s casting in the FFF booklet were made with a rod overloaded by two line weights so he could cast slowly for the photographs at a distance of only 30 feet or so and still get rod loading. From watching him cast in person, I think he starts his haul earlier than vertical (at least on long distance casts) when he casts a properly lined rod.

I say the haul FIRST gives more rod load and SECOND more line speed.

Scott Swartz

[HoosierHackle]

What a great post. When I was first learning to haul, I could feel what was happening when I hauled, and I could see the results, but I couldn't really visualize what was happining. After many hours of gazing at the cubicle wall, here's what I came up with. You know when you were a kid jumping on a trampoline, and the big kid jumped right before the little kid and the little kid flew 20 feet in the air? I think that's what happens with the rod (tramp) and the line (kid). When you start to push the line, the rod loads according to the weight of the line it's pushing. When you haul, you decrease the amount of line the rod was loaded to throw, which gives the line more energy, and bounces the little kid Way into the air.
After reading some of these posts though, I think I agree with Kent. When you haul, the line velocity is increased in the direction of the cast, thereby increasing it's momentum (which I think is mass x velocity) and it's kinetic energy (1/2 mass x velocity squared).
Lastly, I think that the reason the quicker the haul, the more effective the haul, is this: for each stroke, the rod is only at it's maximum bend for an instant. The longer you wait to haul, the more the rod loads because more line is out to bend it. The quicker you release the line after that maximum bend, the less you resist the line's force pulling against your grip. So I guess I believe that the optimal haul would occur in the smallest window possible on either side of the point in the cast of maximum rod load.

just read my own post. sorry - engineer - need I say more?

[This message has been edited by HoosierHackle (edited 01-26-2004).]

[Ty]

Scott at the Atlanta Fly Fishing School was kind enough to take me through a two hour casting lesson yesterday despite some pretty nasty weather. He broke out the video camera and took some footage of me doing a few casts with hauls. Turns out that I am hauling on the front cast after the rod passes vertical like I thought, but on the back cast I am hauling before the rod passes vertical. I'm also hurrying the backcast stroke rather than bringing it through a gradual acceleration to the power snap. As a result, my loops on the backcast are not as tight and at times act as thought they are going to tail. So I have some work to do to correct this. Thanks to Scott for pointing this out, among several other things.

Thanks also for everyone's comments in this thread. This is an interesting topic. I guess my feeling at this point is that it's less important when you start the haul and more important that your haul is really accelerating as you go into the power snap and that the haul and the stroke hit maximum speed together and stop together.

Ty