View Full Version : Let Me Get This Straight...
10-18-04, 06:02 PM
Subject: Let me get this straight...
Lemme see; have I got this straight?
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...
Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...
Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian - terrorists-
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...
Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...
Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...
No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...
Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...
Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...
Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...
Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...
Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...
Ahh, it's so confusing!
Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax
burden on Americans, and then calculates the
"Tax Freedom Day". This is the day after which the money you earn goes to
you, not the government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's
the earliest it has been
since 1991. It's latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred in 2000.
Notice anything special about those dates?
Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are
actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He
gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.
Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men.
Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas. Kerry owns
4 mansions, all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in
Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your
Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000.
Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously
figured out a way to avoid paying his own.
10-18-04, 07:51 PM
You will never win 'em over with facts. Facts don't matter to an emotion-based ideology. Feeling good is all that counts.
Mike: I think you got it straight!
You know I'm a Bush supporter, but I couldn't help but add this one:
The hamster died: good
The hamster lived after extensive mouth-to-mouth: bad
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout
10-19-04, 12:30 AM
10-19-04, 09:44 AM
Number of US soldiers killed enforcing the Iraq no-fly zone: 0
Number of US soldiers killed while making the US safe from Iraqi WMD's: > 1000 and counting
What a long strange trip it's been...
10-19-04, 09:49 AM
Incomplete. You forgot to whine about the liberal media, gun control, and the abolishment of Christianity in the US.
...and lets close our eyes, click our heals together three times and wish a $400 billion dollar federal deficit will go away by more deficit spending.
The Kosovo bit was at the behest of Tony Blair, and it went some distance towards earning some US credibility in the Mid East, something we haven't had a shred of since the Carter era. Tony believes in what he is doing in Iraq, but unfortunately he is out of step with the overwhelming majority of Britt’s and will face elections next year.
$87 billion was just one of several fundings. There will be many more, unless we turn tail and run. Most folks in the world realize that Iraq doesn't have anything to do with terrorism. It is misdirected 9/11 revenge, Christian Jihad, oil politics, and Bush family vendetta. That's why we are seeing our reputation and credibility in the world go down the toilet, and understandably so.
An amusing fact: While there weren’t enough troops in post invasion Iraq to keep the peace, there were enough to occupy the Oil Ministry. There were also insufficient troops to secure equipment tagged and deadlined by the UN weapons inspectors that was potentially useful for a nuclear weapons program. Much of this equipment has disappeared and is presumed to have been sold on the black market. Gee.. Iran has a nuclear weapons program, a religious fundamentalist government and links to nefarious groups. I suppose this was a 'terrorist war'. Too bad it was 'for' terrorism and not ‘against’.
Now we are going to have to stick it out and clean up George's mess.
Look carefully, this is a 'Darwin moment' and we aren't fairing too well. However the leading post was funny and got many of the facts right.
[This message has been edited by Bob M (edited 10-19-2004).]
And histrionics aside, there were more arrests and convictions in the Bush Sr administration than the Clinton administration. Yep that’s right.
Also, Clinton was never indicted, much less convicted, of a felony so this is an imaginary fact which brings forth even more imaginary conclusions. This remains true despite $60 million spent on a partisan witch hunt, the result being that he had a girlfriend. Big deal.
If it would bring some fiscal responsibility to the Bush administration, George should go out and get two girlfriends. Three even.
Now that's funny.
You guys always give us much more credit than we deserve. We ain't that organized or committed.
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout
10-19-04, 12:56 PM
I bet if the gov't spent $60 mil looking through anybodies dirty laundry (including the so called "leaders" in Washington), we find a lot worse than someone getting a "hummer" and lying about it. Besides, if you were married to Hillary, you might need a girl friend. http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/smile.gif
Did anyone catch Carter on Hard Ball last night? I realize he's probably not to popular around this board, but what he said about Iraq, Iran, the middle east, etc... made a lot of sense.
....well about as much as we could resonably expect Congress and the Administration to be 'organized'. Have you seen the proposed Constitutional Amendments lately, not to mention foreign and domestic policy?
The side that is better armed can use conventional tactics. The other guys have to use unconventional tactics. Let's not get confused by the choice of weapons. Tactics are independent of agendas. Heck, the US backed these very same tactics by these very same guys during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and we paid for them in Nicaragua. .....by selling arms to Iran. Too funny.
10-19-04, 01:22 PM
So if Kosovo built credibilty for us in the muslim world then explain 9/11 .... Guess acknowleding Israels right to exist offended some other muslims .... oh well.
So we stop giving Israel $$ then the muslims say stop trading with them , so we do that then the muslims do not acknowledge them..... glad you weren't backing me up when I had to stand up to school bullies !!
Oh, I guess I should have considered what I did to offend those bullies....
10-19-04, 01:27 PM
Regarding Afghanistan & the Russians:
The Spetsnaz, basically had the 'moojuHadeen ' cowering in the hills and pretty dormant until we gave them(muslims) stingers to shoot down the Hinds...
2 more years without Stingers and it would have been a Russian state. Do some FACTUAL research on this and it is easily verified.
It took awhile but the Russians figured out where they lived and were killing them by the hundreds .... we will ultimately have to do this as well and we cannot afford to worry about 'offending' muslims.
10-19-04, 01:33 PM
Jimmy Carter was a naive ineffective fool of a diplomat and president.
He gets a Nobel prize for a peace deal that the N Koreans never had any intetntion of honoring .... Oh what a master of diplomacy.
We are the bully this time. Most of the kids on the playground are getting a little peeved at us. The rhetoric is that we can punch anyone we like and don't have to concern ourselves with anyone. Oh, but they should jump in and protect our back and help pay for damages. Too funny.
10-19-04, 01:50 PM
Let's see, Carter brought together Egypt and Israel and they are still at peace, up until then, they had two major wars. Yes, quite a fool for a diplomat. Perhaps if he had invaded Iran (as he was advised), he would have won the election of 1980. I don't know... Monday quarterbacking is always easier than Saturday.
If we don't take some sort of leadership role with Israel and their neighbors, this situation with the middle east will never improve. No matter how many countries we invade. If Carter was a fool as a diplomat, what does that say about Dubya as a diplomat?
10-19-04, 01:59 PM
Egypt and Israel did that deal on Carters watch . Mainly Egypt because they do not look forward to engaging Israel again. So you can give credit to Carter but the reality is that Israel didn't flinch and negotiated from a position of strength. Oh, and it's not over yet.
The fact that he DIDN'T invade Iran says it all.
HOW are we the bully, specifically ?
W is a far superior president to Carter all the way across the board including diplomacy.
We're not allowed to use thiose words.
10-19-04, 02:03 PM
A dramatic improvement in the region is that Palestinian families have mush less 'suicide scholarship' funding via the elimination of the Saddamm regime.
Thanks to W !
SK, look at the news and see for yourself. It ain't very well concealed.
10-19-04, 02:12 PM
SK, you might want to recheck those Afghanistan facts too. The Russians were astounded by the way the Mujahaden were often utterly unconcerned about their lives. That war took a toll on the Russians and ultimately they lost. A few stingers may have moved that date but they did not change the result.
Palestinians are firing rockets from refugee camps into occupied territories. They don’t have any viable options at this point. Sun Tzu’s book has a few interesting insights. (Sun Tzu, Art of War, Samuel B. Griffith translation - Chapter 11- The Nine Varieties of Ground, paragraph 23 ‘Death Ground’ and Chapter 3- Offensive Strategy)
This hasn’t even started yet.
10-19-04, 03:07 PM
I'll admit that Carter had some major problems as president, especially with the economy and dealing with the politics of Washington. Perhaps he spent too much time trying to broker a deal in the middle east? I'll let history judge who was tbe better president.
But... what data are you using to say that Dubya is a "far superior" diplomat than Carter? From what I've read, we are now the laughing stock of the diplomatic world.
I'll admit that if Collin Powell was allowed to do his job, we would be in a lot better position diplomatically than we are now.
I'll even predict that after Bush wins the election (I'm fairly sure he will), Powell will resign as secretary of state.. just a hunch. If he does, I hope he decides to seek a "higher office" in 2008. I'm not impressed with our leadership in Washington nor am I impressed with our options in the upcoming election.
And 50 billion of the 500 billion savings and loan fiasco was Carter's
Um isnt gun control using both hands?
What? What did I do now? ;)
10-19-04, 04:05 PM
Yes , check the Afghanistan FACTS not your classic propaganda.
This is a big selling point for UBL ; he says that allah helped them beat the Russians so they stay quiet about the fact that things had turned for the worse tactically until the USA entered the picture.
A recurring theme, with the political will and economic support (which didn't exist thanks to Reagan) they could have stayed the course and won.
I guess empowering and freeing 25 million Iraqi muslims is offensive and we are bullies to do such a thing.
I have just one question...how can we blame any President for all the stuff that happens, when in fact the President doesnt really have that much power in the first place?
It is just a question and for once I may be wrong, but I dont think so? http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/ubbngto/wink.gif
What? What did I do now? ;)
You can't take one fact and generalize it to make a viable conclusion. That is a logical fallacy called the ‘fallacy of multiplication’. It is one of the ‘fallacies of relevance’.
The real situation is a bit more complicated and it doesn't sensibly reduce to 'sound bites' as much as we would like it to. We can however limit our own reasoning to 'sound bites' although I can only think of a few places where that would be useful.
Plus, it might be useful to define 'freed 25 million Iraquis'. There are a bunch of them that may define it a bit differently.
How about "removed a sure killer of his own people from power". That sounds like a good starting point to freeing millions.
Obviously the Bush admin has done an awful job of promoting this action - and some of our top brass have done just as awful a job of carrying it out - but it was still the right thing to do.
And I don't see how W. can be slammed for being involved in Iraq, yet also be chided for not being more involved in Israel. The difference is, the Israelis are doing one heck of a job (whether you agree with their methods or not) of defending themselves against 100-1 odds, and the Palestinians are too anti-Semitic to bargain rationally.
Iraqi citizens didn't have the luxury of being either defensive or anti-Saddam.
Follower of Christ
Pursuer of trout
I certainly agree that Bush removed a local despot and a regional threat to our oil supply. I also agree that he eliminated the need for continued diplomacy to enforce sanctions and economic isolation.
On the minus side:
1.) We’ll be spending 1,000+ American lives a year for the foreseeable future.
2.) We’ll be spending $100(s) billion(s) a year for the foreseeable future.
3.) We have replaced Sadam with other threats on our oil supplies.
4.) We have made Iraq available to the Islamic fundamentalists, where previously they were not able to operate effectively.
5.) We are increasing the size of the Islamic fundamentalist movement by handing them a very effective recruiting poster. It’s our picture, by the way.
6.) We’ve decreased the number of countries for fundamentalists to concentrate their attacks on. The Russians have helped out here recently.
7.) We’ve alienated long time allies. Don’t be surprised if it is ‘just us’ after next year’s elections in Britain.
8.) We have diminished a lot of our credibility in the world and squandered all of the post-9/11 support we had.
9.) We’ve decreased the number of forces that we are bringing to bear on Osama.
10.) We’ve stretched our military so thin that we no longer have a credible non-nuclear threat for another conflict.
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