Knot Question

[Tom A]

Hi Jimmy,
I would like your oppinion on knots for your big boys. If you are using florocarbon leader and tippet (2x) what knots do you find works best for tippet to leader and from tippet to hook? I know there is a difference when using big floro and the smaller stuff. Anyone else can feel free to chime in if you have experience with this big stuff. Thanks and God bless,
Tom A

[deltaflyer]

When I fished with a guide at Nacoochee Bend last Fall, we used 9' 4X Mirage leaders and he added tippet with a triple surgeons knot. We changed to a new leader at lunch time. I'm not sure what knot he used to tie on the flies but I used a improved clinch knot and had no problems.

[Jimmy Harris]

Tom A,

I agree with DF, we mostly use a triple surgeon's knot for adding tippet to the leader. Well, Kyle probably uses a blood knot since he can tie one in less than 10 seconds (seriously, I've timed him!). And most folks probably use an improved clinch knot for tying on the fly. There are knots that are stronger than the improved clinch, like the Orvis knot, and if you take the time to learn to tie them correctly they will help. Here's the thing about knots: if you don't tie them properly, a "100%" knot is less reliable than a properly tied (aka improved clinch) 70% knot. Don't try to learn how to tie a new knot while you're paying to fish for trophy trout. Most people have sort of grown up with the improved clinch so it's second nature to them. Use it if you have confidence in your ability to tie it correctly. You need to be aware that we don't fish with 2X on any of our trophy waters. The fish are savy enough to pick up on that larger tippet and you simply won't catch many. We'll use 3X now and then when we're fishing streamers, particularly when the water is off-color. Most of the time we're fishing 4X & 5X so a well tied knot is important. The past few days we've been catching fish on real small stuff; 18's & 20's so we have to use small tippets. One other thing about fluorocarbon: it will literally cut through itself due to the hardness of the material so, if you hook a large fish and have it on for any length of time, you need to cut the fly off & re-tie before resuming fishing. If you don't do this, you stand a really good chance of breaking off on the next fish of any size. Trust me on this; I'm speaking from many personal experiences where I was too lazy or too hard headed to re-tie my knot.

FlygURL, my feelings are hurt! You answer anything on here any time you want. I learn just as much as anyone else from this board. That "guru" stuff is all marketing. I frequently don't understand all I know about this sport. Ha!

[Moye]

Now I have a question. If fluorocarbon cuts through itself should fluorocarbon tippet be used in combination with a mono leader or should you use only fluorocarbon leaders with fluorocarbon tippet?

[Jimmy Harris]

Hey Moye.

The manufacturers will tell you not to tie fluorocarbon to nylon. It will cut through the nylon but we do it all the time. More of that hard headedness.

[MickeyFinn]

For big trout in the 5 - 13 lb range Jimmy Harris probably knows more than anyone else around here.

All I can say is that 2X Orvis SuperStrong leader and 3X Rio fluro tippett has worked just fine for me. I use a double surgeons knot to tie the leader to about 6 ft of tippett and regular clinch knot at the fly. No breakoff problems at all with really big fish.
You can catch and hold big fish on lighter tippetts, but, I really like 3X because you are less likely to baby/overplay the fish and thereby kill them! Big fish can die easily fighting the rod and the swift current if you cant pull them out rather quickly.( a 5 minute fight vs a 10 minute fight).
By the way, all the fishing guides I met in Montana last year also tie a regular clinch knot at the hook. That turned out to be the best thing I learned all year. I saved a LOT of time not fooling with an improved clinch knot this year...and the knot strength has been just fine.
my .02

[Rick Padgett]

Hey Jimmy,

What's your take on using straight flurocarbon, and no leader when you are doing nothing but high sticking. I just cleaned my line and tied 8' of 5x flouro directly onto the fly line. I have trouble when I tie flouro onto std leader, I mean it literally cuts itself into, just like you mentioned. I used this setup the last time I was at Duke's Creek, and lost 2 HUGE fish. Both times I broke off at the tippet leader knot, (on the flouro side of the knot).

Any ideas/suggestions?
Thanks,
Rick

[Jimmy Harris]

Rick,

There's nothing "wrong" with doing it this way but you make some compromises that I'm not sure are necessary. First, you lose the benefit of some taper in your leader which helps to transfer the energy from your fly line to deliver the fly easily. Secondly, if your entire leader is 5X then, theoretically, your entire leader is your weakest point (as opposed to only the final 2 feet or so. If I were you, I would keep trying to perfect my knots rather than rig it your way. Keep this in mind; one of the fun aspects of fly fishing is figuring things out. When you lose a nice fish, don't fret and stew over it, try something different next time and see if it works better. As a good friend of mine scolded me one day when I was fussing over losing a nice fish, "D***, Jimmy, it's just fishin'!" Have fun!

[Rick Padgett]

Thanks for the info Jimmy. I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense to me. Just that I have heard about how stong the flouro is, and to lose an 8-10 lb fish, and have it break on the flouro section was just a bit much. The extra strength is the reason I went to the flourocarbon in the first place. Another reason is that with the flouro being smaller, using all flouro 5x would allow my fly to get deeper, quicker. So it wasn't just the breaking issue that prompted my decision. Ans since I basically high-stick the entire time using essentially a lob cast, Ididn't think the energy transfer to be an issue. My only concern was if they started surface feeding, I'd have to go with a tapered leader in order to go, "High and Dry"! However, this time of year, there is very little dry action to be seen.

I'll take your advice on improving my knot tying with the flouro. Speaking of, what advice can you give??? I wet my knots before cinching, and try to carefully pull the slack out evenly to prevent the burning/cutting effect.

Thanks in advance for any tips.

Rick

[Rocketroy]

Rickster, et.al.......The Pitzen knot has been tested, under lab conditions @ 98-100 percent tippet/leader strength @ the joint,and as Jimmy pointed out, the easy-to-tie improved clinch, parts @ about 70% of stated yield. That means that a 4 x tippet/leader joint may part @3.5 #s # { 5# x 70%= 3.5 # }! Do you want to put that up against a strong fish in moving,snag infested waters? Another factor that I have studied: the step down from leader to tippet diameter, as well as the density and hardness difference creates holding promblems for your knots. F.I., stepping down from 2x to 7x, is a no-no, using most commonly applied joinery! I am no expert on knots, but the three most essential for me are: Nail knot,triple surgeons,Pitzen,and will even use the Improved clinch, when dropping off a beadhead or trout candy in DH water, where large fish are rare {it,s fast/easy} { I paid for that on the Hooch thru Helen several years ago!} But being a typical cold, wet,windy winter day.......it was that knot, or head fot the fire! Do a Google search for Pitzen, or try Edgar Pitzenbauer, and see if this knot fits your needs! or www.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/pitzen. Regards, Rocketroy of Clarkesville

[Jackster]

Rocketroy, the sweetest part about that knot, besides the ease of tying it, is how it tells you with a click that it is tied correctly. The tag also clicks into an angle of about 45 degrees from the standing part. It's a dink of a knot too!
Good stuff!

[Rick Padgett]

Have you guys used these knots with the flourocarbon material? The only time I have any problem is with tying the flouro tippet to mono leader. I have experimented at home with this stuff, and it's hard for me to tie. It always seem to want to break off on the flouro side, just below the knot. This makes me think there is something in the way I am tying the know that is causing a "Burn" effect somehow. The flouro is supposed to be much stronger than the standard mono stuff.

Are there any special precautions you can think of when tying mono and flouro that might help prevent this breaking?

Thanks,
Rick