rod action

[Lurch]

what is the differance between moderate, moderate fast, and fast action rods? Do certain uses work better with certain ones?(nymphing, dry fly, streamers... ect) I am just curious.

Thanks,
Lurch

[Bob M]

Mostly it is a matter of preference and casting style.

Very fast rods can be a pain for very short casts, but they can help to minimize tailing loops for folks that over powered their casting strokes.

The best advice has always been to cast a bunch and choose what you like.

[Robert Hafner]

Actually, its the other way around, a moderate or moderately fast action rod will be more forgiving with tailing loops. With fast action rods, your casting technique has to be on the money.

[RoyC]

Each rod maker has its own idea of what slow, moderate and fast are but rarely do they carry over from one another. Example Winston's boron II rods are the fastest rods they make ( And Winston calls them a fast rod) and these are slower than a Sage SLT which is the slowest rod Sage makes. All speeds of rods can be used for most all types of fishing. It is for the most part only a personal preference as to what speed one likes or dislikes.

RoyC

[Bob M]

RF, 'over-powered casting strokes' is the operative phrase. That's when a quicker rod helps. Yes, you do have to have better timing with a quick rod. However, if you overpower a rod, it will flex and unflex during the acclerating part of your casting stroke, and the tip of the rod will slightly dip during power stroke thus causing a tailing loop. A fast rod is harder to overpower, so they can be a solution to this problem. ....and you have to watch your timing a bit closer. BTW this was my problem and solution for many years.

[Robert Hafner]

Lurch, I totally forgot to answer your question. If your looking for an all around action fly rod I would go with a moderately fast action rod. It does just about everything. A slow action rod is a great tippet protection dry fly rod. A fast action throws tight loops (if your technique is good) for distance and windy conditions and is a great fish fighting tool.
Bob, I'm mystified by your response but as casting instructor I love these topics and I'm sure we'll be joined shortly by others also. Kent! I just know that one of the most common casting errors I see is fly guys overpowering the casting stroke and with a fast action rod or quite frankly, with any action rod, thats tailing loop city. If using a faster action rod has helped you, all the better. Rod action is definately a matter of personal preference. For me I have a more compact and quick casting stroke, so I prefer a fast action rod. But, I will say this. If you are a beginner to intermediate caster, you might find it easier to start casting a more moderately fast or medium action rod.

[oyster]

Lurch,

I'll give you another perspective on rod action or "speed". Rod "speed" -fast, slow, moderate, etc. has generally become more associated with the way the rod bends than the actual elasticity of the rod material. Two rods can be made from the same exact quantity of the same exact material and one will be called fast by all who cast it and the other will be called slow. The difference is in where the rod bends when cast. A fast action rod is generally stiff in the butt section and much more supple in the tip. A "slow" rod is stiffer in the tip which tends to force the bend much more deeply into the more supple butt section. The end result is that the tip flex (fast) rod has less distance to travel during the casting stroke and therefore the casting frequency goes up. The casting stroke is shorter, the frequency higher, the small arc produced by the tip (all things being equal) aids in keeping the casting loop tighter and the line speed higher. These qualities are good for distance casting, casting into wind, whipping dry a fly etc. On a full flexing (slow) rod the tip travels through a large arc, while the tip speed may be the same, the increased distance it travels means a slower frequency and the larger arc tends to produce wider loops and slower overall line speeds. This lazy action is good for line manipulation like mending, roll casts, slack line casts, curve casts, etc. Most experienced fly fishers (not all but I think most is a safe bet) prefer fast action rods for saltwater or distance type fishing and a somewhat slower action rod for delicate trout type work where accuracy is more of a factor. Hope this answers your questions.

Bill Oyster

[Lurch]

thanks for all the input, my question has been answered!!!

lurch

[Rocketroy]

Robert, et.al. Just adding my two cents to these posts....... most being good info., with one exception: In regard to how tailing loops are formed,the most often reason given by those that study the process of energy transfer and the tracking involved are in agreement,...... that tip tracking, where the tip dips under a path parallel to the ground,causes tailing{ in this case the back cast}, since the line track must follow the tip! This opens the loop,absorbing line energy.and is to be avoided! The one technique, that will almost allways correct this common error{ usually made extreme by the famous spinning rod wrist bend on the back cast!} is called "DRIFT!" Mel Kreiger is credited with identifying the solution, by introducing @ the back cast stop, the slow pause and lifting of the upper arm, as an aid in timing, and to position the tip for the parallel forward track! Some also suggest a lead by the elbow on the forward cast,as a way of avoiding bringing in the power too early,which has been mentioned,as a typical fault........of which there are many,and elusive to boot! Of course there are an endless # of ways to blow any cast we make, but reading about and trying to chase down and improve my own faults is a fascinating and enjoyable journey! Chime in if you disagree with my comments, there,s a lot of disagreement, when trying to explain, what we think we know about how our physical world works! Robert......still want to do a little friendly cast off with you, or any others, when in the Clarkesville area...... Have a new obstacle course as a challenge........fits well the tight No. Ga. stream conditions! Regards, Rocketroy..... P.S. Any other theories out there........ that can cause a tail? I have, but it,s someone elses time! R.R.

[Kent]

Lurch, you've gotten the info already. But I can never resist a casting discussion.

And I have my opinions - value typical of most opinions.

Robert, I'm with Bob and do think fast rods are usually more forgiving of the tailing loops than softer rods. This isn't necessarily a good thing though , as it can mask the problem. Years ago, I began bass fishing West Point Lake with a Fenwick 8 wt - one of the 1st graphites and very slow. My casting was pretty poor, and I had trouble getting distance with big flies and of course threw tails regularly. When the RPLX came out, I bought one. My distance improved mainly because when I really put the power on (early), I was much less apt to tail. My casting still sucked, but the fast Sage bent less when I gave it the power early and hence the tendency to tail was reduced.

Nowadays, my casting is a good bit better and I can throw the Fenwick practically as far as the Sage. But I'm throwing the Sage much farther than I did when I first got it. And I probably would have been much better off & improved much sooner if I had learned to throw the Fenwick. I could have spent $50 on a lesson and not $450 on the Sage! But I was self-taught (idiot for student & teacher), and the Sage masked my problems. So I kept making mistakes in basic technique for years.

Now Roy, yours is the discussion I really like.

A tailing loop is caused by a dipping path of the rod tip. Period.

But there are numerous things that can cause this dip. You mention the drift. Since a long cast requires a longer stroke, the drift can indeed fix a tail caused by too short a stroke for the length of line. And for intermediate casters, the too-short stroke is often the cause of tails.

Carl & I have been working on casting illustrations. Y'all can help us critique them. Here's one that shows the dipping rod tip - "tailing loop city".

http://flyfishga.com/images/tailing.gif

And here's one with a staright-line rod tip path - the rod continues to bend throughout the stroke.

http://flyfishga.com/images/straight_line.gif

Numerous things can cause a dip in the tip path. The one that you hear about most is the "improper application of power", often referred to improperly as "too much power." In fact, too much power will not cause a tail if it is properly applied. Too much power is a waste of energy, will cause shock waves in the line, poor delivery, and other things, but not a tail.

The problem arises when the power is not continuously increased through the stroke. If the power slacks off during the stroke, the rod begins to unbend. This effectively lengthens the rod, creating a high spot in the cast. And voila - tailing loop.

Another thing that can cause a tail is a backcast that doesn't straighten. Then the rod starts forward, pulling slack from the unstraightened backcast. There is little load on the rod, hence little bend. Then the slack suddenly comes tight, the rod loads heavily and instantly. The tip dips under the heavy load, and then unloads almost immediately. Another tail!

There are more - anything that dips the tip to early and doesn't keep it bent. Who's got more?

Now, this all makes perfect sense to me but I know what I'm trying to say. I'd sure be curious to know if it makes any sense at all to beginning and intermediate casters not accustomed to talking about casting for hours on end like Robert, Roy & me. And from you experienced guys, are these accurate and how could they be more meaningful. Thanks.

[Windknot]

BobM said “Very fast rods can be a pain for very short casts, but they can help to minimize tailing loops for folks that over powered their casting strokes.”



That has held true for me twice, once test-casting a GLX blank David Edens brought to a Fling, and then after winning a SCIV 5wt this spring. I caught myself punching a bit on the power stroke, and immediately focused on the line. No TL! How nice!



Kent said “Robert, I'm with Bob and do think fast rods are usually more forgiving of the tailing loops than softer rods. This isn't necessarily a good thing though , as it can mask the problem.”



One section of the SCIV is in the mail, and I used another, slightly slower 5wt last weekend on flatwater. The fish were biting, and I was not paying much attention to my casting. I’m glad nobody saw me….. my leader & tippet could have been used to make a beadchain door for a dollhouse. :o



Kent, the illustrations are terrific. Some people learn by words, some by pictures. I think I’ll set aside a copy of your post, cause I found both to be very clear.

[The Ole Man]

Kent--another one that you might illustrate is this: as the caster begins the backcast, the arm is raised. This sends the rod tip in an arc ABOVE the true casting plane. As the arm passes the shoulder, it drops, the hand drops and this drops the tip BELOW the true casting plane. The backcast now is unrolling not in the true plane parallel above the water but on a plane tilted down towards the water (this cast will often hit the water behind the caster). As the caster now starts forward, the hand is raised, the tip is raised and the forward cast IS made on the true casting plane. But--because the tip went up, then down and then back up (almost a sideways figure 8) the paths cross each other forming a tailing loop. To keep the rod tip on the true parallel plane, the hand and elbow must move in a parallel plane. The correct arm movement is best illustratred as imagining the elbow rubbing along a shelf during the cast--never losing contact with the shelf. If you are sitting at a desk, place your elbow on the desktop, close your hand as if holding a flyrod--now rub your elbow along the desktop. If the hand and elbow travel in a parrallel plane--the rod tip will travel in a parallel plane. You can have all the movement in the shouilder joint that you like as long as the hand and elbow stay in one plane.

[mmarkey]

Good stuff guys! Don't stop!

[Bob M]

Several of the casting videoes demonstrate why an overpowered stroke will cause tailing loops. i.e. the rod tip should move in a straight line during the casting stroke, but it will dip slightly if you get a bit too 'pushy' on the stroke. Fortunately I got past this one years ago and enjoy rods with a lot of different actions these days, .....although it does take a few moments to acclimate when moving back and forth between dry fly tapers and parabolics. Life is short, but it can be wide.

[Fish Gazer]

Ok.....Why does Sage recommend their new fast action rods for better casters only, if the faster action rods are easier to cast? Someone mentioned fast action rods are stiffer tips and softer butts. It seems like the butt would also have to be stiffer also, or is it relative to each end? I also wonder why I am more prone to throwing tailing loops after moving from a fast action rod to a slower rod, I guess that make sense according to this thread? I also thought it was where you apply the power that was important. Apply the power too early in the stroke and you get a tailing loop. Are you less likely to get tailing loops if you cast more side arm? I dont really understand how drift can affect tailing loops, I thought drift was to increase the length of the casting stroke and increase distance? Maybe it lengthens the time frame for the power application, therefore making the timing easier?

Oh and ah, I'll stop for now :)

Jeff

[Robert Hafner]

Kent, I have to say an awesome illustration. Keep it coming. Here is the bottom line for me as a caster and instructor. I guess I'm old school. No matter what action rod you use you should Not get tailing loops if your using good technique. Yes at times you will have to adjust to the action of the rod but it amounts all to good technique. Period. Kent you also mentioned the backcast not straightening. Sounds like you mean rod creep. I loved your explanation of rod acceleration. That is so on the money. Power that is applied in the proper place and the proper time in the stroke. Here are my three recipes for tails. Power applied in the wrong amount and time in the stroke. Stroke length either not long or short enough for the cast that is being done. Short cast, short stroke, long cast, long stroke. Last but not least, rod creep. After stopping the rod on a cast and not staying stopped. Can there be more, of course. Those are my three main causes of that darn tip dipping. I also like that word mask. I have seen some ways to get rid of tailing loops that use these masking techniques and it really kills me. Why not learn to not make them period. Why try to hide them. This folks is the beauty of fly fishing. Lots of questions, long discussions,great responses and good friends. God, I love this sport. Kent please do an illustration on the acceleration of the rod tip.

[Kent]

Jeff, I know I can depend on you to ask the tough questions. ;)

Check Bill's post again - faster rods actually have softer tips and stiffer mid & butt sections. That means that a fast rod bends in the tip only for all but the longest casts. A softer/slower rod has a stiffer tip than a fast rod but a softer mid/butt and hence bends into the mid section. For many anglers they can feel the bending (loading) better with the slower rod. The slower rod bends farther into the blank and does it a little slower. The other side of this is that it unbends a little slower too, and doesn't generate quite the lines speed of a faster rod.

I wouldn't say that faster rods are easier to cast - that depends on the individual. I actually think a slower rod is easier to feel, and might actually be best to learn on (and develop proper feel). For me it didn't work that way - I didn't know how to feel it and never did. Hence the early/over-powered casts and the associated tails. The fast rod was easier for me originally simply because it camouflaged my faults.

Now the TCR is a very stiff rod, i.e. very fast. It is pretty stiff throughout its length and requires a pretty quick powerful stroke to bend it at all. The plus is that this means it unbends very quickly and generates high line speeds. The problem for "less than the best" casters is that it may be hard to bend at all, and if the power doen't maintain/increase all the way to the stop, then it unloads. Many beginning and intermediate casters don't feel the rod load at all (maybe it doesn't with their stroke) and feel that it needs to be uplined 1 or 2 weights to "feel right."

A sidearm cast is no less likely to tail than an overhead. But many casters throw the forward and backcasts in different planes and the tails do not actually run into the line. This is just more camoflage - the problem is still there and even though the line doesn't tangle, the problem is still there and results in inefficiency and decreased accuracy and distance.

A longer line requires (and allows) a longer stroke because the additional weight of a longer line bends the rod more (making it shorter in the middle/end of the stroke). If the stroke doesn't lengthen (making the tip get lower at the beginning and end of the stroke), then the dip of the heavily loaded (bent) rod will be more pronounced. Drift will help lengthen the stroke. For example, a very good caster throwing a very long line will complete the backcast with the rod practically parallel to the ground. If he had powered the rod to this position, he would have thrown the line into the ground. So he stops eartly enough to direct the cast upwards, but then drifts the rod farther back to allow for a longer stroke on the following forward cast. (Does this make any sense? I'll work on an illustration for this.)

Robert, No doubt about it, a tail can be thrown with any rod. And it depends on the caster as to which action rod is most apt to do so. It may be that with a slower rod, the caster can better feel the load and hence is less apt to over/early power it.

Creep is definitely a major cause of tails. (For those not familiar with the term creep, it is the opposite of drift - after the stop and during the hesitation, the rod moves in the direction of the upcoming cast, effectively shortening the stroke on the following cast.)

But even without creep, not straightening the backcast can cause a tail. The rod comes forward on an unstraightend backcast and it just pulls out slack, without beginning to load. Then suddenly the slack is out, the rod loads instantly and deeply, and the rod tips dips. Bingo - tailing loop.

The best illustration of the rod tip acceleration comes from the casting session a few years ago we did with Bruce Richards and his casting analyzer. (For those not familiar, the analyzer is the machine that was featured in Fly Fisherman magazine a while back and it measures the speed of rod rotation. Bruce Richards is the design engineer for 3M/SA for many years and one of the world's finest casters). Here is the graph of Bruce's forward cast. The graph shows speed in the vertical axis, time in the horizontal. Note the start is at zero, it starts fairly slow, rises quickly to a max and then drops immediately to zero. Several of us got measured but none of the ours looked nearly as good as Bruce's. Also notable but not shown was his backcast - virtually identical in acceleration, and placed at the same relative point on power. In other words his backcast was virtually identical to the forward in every respect.

http://www.flyfishga.com/images/cast_br.gif


Old Man, you're a Lefty fan!

To keep the rod tip on the true parallel plane, the hand and elbow must move in a parallel plane. The correct arm movement is best illustratred as imagining the elbow rubbing along a shelf during the cast--never losing contact with the shelf. If you are sitting at a desk, place your elbow on the desktop, close your hand as if holding a flyrod--now rub your elbow along the desktop. If the hand and elbow travel in a parallel plane--the rod tip will travel in a parallel plane. You can have all the movement in the shouilder joint that you like as long as the hand and elbow stay in one plane.

This is correct if you are casting sidearm "Lefty-style." But Lefty's is not the only way to cast (gods forgive me). In a more upright style, considerable up/down travel of the elbow is possible and even desirable. I have a friend who is one of the best casters in the country (and has proven it in competion) and also a very acute analyzer of casting strokes. He says Lefty throws tailing loops regularly in his demos, but that with his sidearm style and the different planes in the back and forward casts you just don't see them and they don't collide. Personally, I think this is heresy and that lightening will strike him soon. I try to stay a good distance away from him when we fish together.

[The Ole Man]

Kent--true, so true. I am an almost totally side arm caster--only casting upright when forced to. Mainly because it feels the best to me --and more importantly, it keeps the hook far off to the side instead of having it travel in a plane that I'm standing under. Never been hooked by a fly--so far. :)

[Tom]

I am dizzy headed. Great thread, I guess I just don't think about all those things very much. If the rod feels good when casting (not wiggling it around in the fly shop) I like it. We use to just refer to rod action as "stiff" or "soft".

One question...Isn't a roll cast just one big tailing loop? (Just kidding)

[Rocketroy]

Fish Gazer, Please take another look at my tip concerning how the "Drift" will keep the tailing loop from forming. Since the laws of physics will not allow a bendable lever to stay in the same plane, all casts involve a concave arc of the tip that the line MUST follow! My theory is that at the stop on the back cast, there must be a pause to let the accelerated line extend to an ideal straight condition{impossible},and in an attempt to defeat gravity,on a distance attempt, your backcast should be directed in a more upward plane, with the goal of achieving the start of the forward cast as near as possible to several feet above your extended rod tip {gravity, being sure to create a low back cast creating the dreaded open loop}! This absolutely essential pause, when no forward or rearward movement of the rod hand should occur, is the time for a drift move,gracefully up to place the tip smoothly in line, to match the concave loss incurred by the rather extreme bend involved in casts that are considered long! The great long casters of this world say that a tight loop, high line speed, and being able to carry as much as 80-90 ft.while false casting,along with a powerful haul and stop, is required to reach record distances with a 5 wt. production rod/line W/F! {The record I believe is 126 ft.!} To repeat: The drift allows the caster to reposition the tip for the forward cast, and is a help in timing after the back cast stop! Like you, Robert, Kent, and interested readers, the whys are a fascinating part of the sport of competition casting, as a way to enjoy Fly Fishing, and stay dry! Regards, Rocketroy......... P.S. Remember, the NGTO fall fling will again be an opportunity to cast the fun F/F Masters course, plus a new twist this year; so get some hula hoops and start practicing, to knock off last years winner: Jimmy Harris of Unicoi Outfitters!

[Fish Gazer]

I am still attempting to understand this, but I wonder can there be drift on the forward cast when you make a false cast? I read you post again Roy, and others, and I'm still thinkin, :) Also, anyone know which issue FR&R the Bruce Richards article was in, I cant seem to locate it.


Thanks :)

Jeff

[Kent]

Jeff, yes. Drift is certainly possible on the forward cast (casting principles apply equally front & back as both should normally be identical),

The article on the analyzer was in December 2003 issue of Fly Fisherman (page 34).

You know the SexyLoops site I think. Here's another with a lot of good info. Don't miss the review section - it actually synopses of some good stuff -
Fly Casting Forum (http://home.att.net/%7Eslowsnap/index.htm)

[Fish Gazer]

Ya know how when there is something you dont want to lose, and it you put it in that special place, and then never find it again...thats what I did with that issue, I guess. We should make up a word/term for this dilemma. I still have several stacks of mags left to go through. I noticed Kent, that on one of the sites mentioned, they stated to practice only with a DT line. Would the DT make a difference with roll casts... Mel Kreiger makes the 2 foot loop "hammer casts" look so effortless, but it doesnt work that way for me. ;) Roy, thanks for the info about the back cast being up. Also I read Bill's post late one night, and posted the next day without reviewing it, it makes more sense after rereading it.

Jeff

[Kent]

Gazer, you know the answer to that DT vs WF question (http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50298&page=2) . DT is better roll-caster if cast is longer than the head length, usually 30-40'.

I found Kyte-Moran casting article online (http://home.att.net/%7Eslowsnap/biomechanics.htm) - knew it was there but lost the bookmark (I need a name for the dilemma too).

[Fish Gazer]

Thanks Kent for all the help and info.

Jeff

[Mack]

Just to make the record straight, the fastest rods made by Winston are the XTR rods not the BIIx. The BIIx rods are not fast by most standards, but they are powerful. The XTR blanks are quite fast and can easily handle at least one overline size and make an excellent choice for a salt water rod.

There is no question that a fast rod will minimize tailing loops. Moreover, as Kent points out, tailing loops are caused by the non-uniform application of power during the casting stroke not the overpowering of a rod during the stroke.

Mack Martin

[TangledUp]

I found Kyte-Moran casting article online (http://home.att.net/%7Eslowsnap/biomechanics.htm) - knew it was there but lost the bookmark (I need a name for the dilemma too).

Excellent study! Thanks Kent

Travis