Line Carry....

[Fish Gazer]

I have been reading about different fly lines. For further distance I noted some use XXD, which has a longer belly. I also have read where some casters can carry 80-85 ft of fly line. (that was a DT line)

I wondered if any of the longer casters on this board might share how much line they carry, and any tips they might have for practice. Also which line they prefer?


Jeff

[fish]

I try to carry as little as possible. I concern myself more with properly loading the rod with the line I am carrying and shooting for distance.

But to answer the question you asked, when making the 75 foot cast for the fff exam, I practiced to carry no more than 40 to 45 feet of line and shoot the rest. This is the only example I have where I know how much line was being false cast.

[Jackster]

I've not tried a DT for distance but I usually carry the 40' head of the SA GPX to shoot the entire line and about 60-65' on the XXD or Extreme Distance (and no I ain't seen the skinny end of the Extreme Distance since I loaded it!)
These are 100% pure guesses though as I've never really measured how much I carry.

[Scott Swartz]

I like to carry as much line in the air as I can before shooting for distance. It's a fine line as to how much to carry because the line will only shoot well if you are carrying very nice loops and high line speed. If I carry too much line before shooting I get less distance. I'm not sure exactly but guess around 60-70 feet

[chuckwagon]

Others please feel free to ad to this.

My skinny is this. I can only shoot so much line out on the forward haul. For example maybe 30 feet. Therefor if i am wanting to distance cast 100 feet i am needing to carry 70 on the cast back and fro. That is the time consuming part of the long distance. It takes lots of muscle memory training to get that long normal casting stroke down.

The big boys are carrying huge amounts of line on the back and fro casting before they catapult there line out for the distance. I think i've seen the Majeef(sp?) Brothers casting almost all there 90 feet before launching the haul!

Kent, I have a question for you? How or what is the avg distance length on the haul forward on the release? I mean how much line can possibly be shot forward?

Trey
CW

[Fire Walker]

The Rajeff brothers are amazing! I have seen Tim Rajeff carry over 90 of line in the air. He looks like a pro pitcher!

[Kent]

Trey, I don't know the answer to how much shoot. i've never even measured mine. There is definitely a limit to how much can be shot, even if you're Steve Rajeff. We're talking standard WF or DT lines, of course - heads are a different animal.

I read recently where Bruce Richards said the heavy hitters with 5 wts were shooting 30-40' (I think). Those guys are throwing into the 130's so they are carrying 90'+.

I'm afraid I'm a long way from 130' with the 5 wts. Before the Master's when I was practicing distance a lot, I could break 100' with some regularity. Because my stroke is not really good enough to carry over 80' or so (estimate), my most consistent results come with a carry of 70-75' or so, a backcast shoot, and then the final forward shoot. I'll get out 110-115' or so and that'll actually tape off to about 95-100' (since it almost never completely straightens). If you watch the best 5 wt'ers, they usually carry around 85-90 and watch and wait for a (near) perfect backcast, and then they blast it.

[Fish Gazer]

Hey Kent

i've never even measured mine.

I never have either... LOL ;) Welcome to the Liars Club.

On a more serious note, I am still getting the feel of this. I am assuming with a higher weight rod, you can carry more line and therefore shoot more line, therefore more distance.

So for more distance, a long haul, carry more line, add some movement with the wrist, drift, what else?

Thanks

Jeff

[Kent]

Jeff, I'd add tracking to that list - if it's off you lose efficiency and, hence, distance. And naturally all those you mentioned have to be right on.

And then some use a shorter haul ;). And Lefty would tell you that you don't need drift (only 2 things I ever heard Lefty say that I question - 1 is re drifting and the other is tying the non-slip mono loop. Lord, don't let the lightening strike!).

Casting for distance is all about the same things that good casting at any distance is about. When we started trying to throw the 5-wt distance, the thing I found interesting/enlightening/amusing/embarassing was that the we had to work on the same things that we tell novice casters every day in lessons - it's the basics! No slack, proper timing, straight line path of the rod tip, the correct length stroke for the length of line, and proper acceleration.


As to your assumption...I am assuming with a higher weight rod, you can carry more line and therefore shoot more line, therefore more distance. ...maybe, but I'm not completely sure on that one.

[oyster]

Jeff,

Kent also previously mentioned one thing that has since slipped between the cracks, but I think you'll find very important when increasing distance and getting more line in the air before your final shoot. That is - a shoot on your final back cast. Even on a shooting head line with a very short belly, this means you can roll 35' of line into the air, shoot 25' back, then another 25' forward voila 85'! If you can already hold a maximum of 50 or 60 feet in the air, and shoot 25' feet on the forward cast, then you could probably slip out another 15 or more on that last back cast, even though its not an amount you could actually continue to keep airborn. Even though this will put you well behind the belly of the line, most decent casters find they can still keep it together long enough for that one last forward haul.

Bill O.

[jeffg]

Interesting comment from Lefty on the drift... seeing that when I have seen him cast for distance he does drift on the backcast...
and thinking how one could trully shoot an amount of line on a backcast and not have some drift in that backcast shoot just doesnt seem to make sense to me...
When I sit here visualizing this, I see the following
You start the backcast.
You pause slightly to allow the shoot of the line to start
your rod then starts to drift(not creep) downwards while the line is shooting
you pause then at end of drift to allow the line to straighten out
you then start the forward casting motion
with the drift and shoot on backcast the rod flex's more and loads ready for the end of the forward casting stroke and hence ( hopefully) getting you the added distance on the front.

Now shooting line on a backcast without a drift would be possible, but I would think it would limit the distance you can actually shoot either backwards or forwards.

[Kent]

Werll, I'm a little nervous putting words in Lefty's mouth.....but my guess is he'd say there's no need to drift, you just power all the way back with the S-U-A-S at the end. And that's pretty much what he does with that long, flat sidearm cast.

We'll have to watch him at the expo. And ask him too....but don't tell him I put words in his mouth.

[Rocketroy]

Werll, I'm a little nervous putting words in Lefty's mouth.....but my guess is he'd say there's no need to drift, you just power all the way back with the S-U-A-S at the end. And that's pretty much what he does with that long, flat sidearm cast.

We'll have to watch him at the expo. And ask him too....but don't tell him I put words in his mouth.
Kent,I,and others need to know what S-U-A-S stands for: Just a SWAG,{"Scientific Wild *** Guess"},but how about: "Swinging Under Arm Stroke?" , Signed, Confused Rocketroy

[Tom Rice]

I think Lefty uses the term "speed up and stop" to describe the end of the casting stroke.

[Ty]

Gazer,

Try this practice drill - Pick up and false cast several times a length of line that you can carry comfortably and easily. Let's say that length is 50 feet. False cast 50 feet and strive for perfection. Tight perfect loops, perfect tracking, perfect haul timing, and all of the other things Kent mentioned in his earlier post about working on the basics. When you feel like you have it grooved at 50, go to 51 feet and start over. Keep repeating.
I found that this did a couple of things for me. First, it instilled a good solid, repeatable casting stroke and developed that muscle memory mentioned earlier in this thread. Second, my capacity to carry line grew and I began to throw longer distances.
This exercise is the foundation of all of my practice sessions. It's a drill that Bill Gammell talks a lot about and that's who I got it from. It takes some patience but will pay off if you stay with it.

By the way, how does everyone define the length of line carry? I define it as the length of line from the hauling hand to the end of the flyline, excluding leader. Just wanted to make sure we all mean the same thing when we talk about carrying 70 feet of line.

Ty

[saltwaterflyfisher]

a lot of this depends on your rod and your line. Faster rods generally can pick up more line. Longer heads can carry more line.
don't focus on that. If you cast properly you can cast well into the backing.
I prefer the faster rods, but it's not really important. And I have one line that won't cast properly until you get about 70 feet in the air, which is a pain in the butt and probably spooks the fish.
Do what's comfortable for you, your rod and your line and you'll be fine.

[Rocketroy]

Gazer,

Try this practice drill - Pick up and false cast several times a length of line that you can carry comfortably and easily. Let's say that length is 50 feet. False cast 50 feet and strive for perfection. Tight perfect loops, perfect tracking, perfect haul timing, and all of the other things Kent mentioned in his earlier post about working on the basics. When you feel like you have it grooved at 50, go to 51 feet and start over. Keep repeating.
I found that this did a couple of things for me. First, it instilled a good solid, repeatable casting stroke and developed that muscle memory mentioned earlier in this thread. Second, my capacity to carry line grew and I began to throw longer distances.
This exercise is the foundation of all of my practice sessions. It's a drill that Bill Gammell talks a lot about and that's who I got it from. It takes some patience but will pay off if you stay with it.

By the way, how does everyone define the length of line carry? I define it as the length of line from the hauling hand to the end of the flyline, excluding leader. Just wanted to make sure we all mean the same thing when we talk about carrying 70 feet of line.

Ty
Ty, From my studies of the language of casting.......in this case "carry or airealized"{sp?} from the tip,or at the haul hand measurements,the tournament distance measurement metric is by the tape,and from the "0" point at the casters feet! Some discussions on the Sexy loop site indicate carry as outside the tip,Your definition is neither right or wrong,as long as we all agree, that ......thats the definition!........however it is my contention, that using that metric ends up with a 9 ft. less carry,since the line cannot be considered as aierialized! Seems like to me, the only way to measure carry is to hold all you can,don,t shoot the line, do your lay down.....then measure where the fly line lands{excluding leader/yarn fly}------thats your max carry, from your stationary feet {"0"} tape point! Just an opinion of a full time casting student,when not fishing, Rocketroy..........All of it is in the final shoot measurement!

[Ty]

Good stuff Rocketroy. You bring up some interesting points.

The only problem with defining "line carry" as the length of fly line out of the rod tip is that this length constantly changes as you haul. You might have 50 feet out of the rod tip prior to the haul, but only 48 feet after the haul. Are you carrying 48 feet or 50 feet? Paul Arden brought this up on the sexyloops board at one time and said that he measured line carry from the hauling hand because this length stays constant throughout the stroke. It made sense to me and so this is how I started measuring it. Like you say, neither right or wrong. It just happens to work for me.
You make a good point though about the line between the hauling hand and the rod tip not actually being aerialized. But is there a distinction between "aerializing line" and "carrying line"? All of the line in front of the line hand is affected by the hauls whether that line is in or out of the rod tip. Even the line inside the rod tip has to be controlled - increase line speed, reduce slack, etc. So I wonder if this nine feet of line in the rod tip can be included in the definition of "carrying line". I don't know if it makes sense to do this or not. Just asking. What do you think about this? I hope some other casting nuts/gurus provide some input as well.
Ty

[Rocketroy]

Good stuff Rocketroy. You bring up some interesting points.

The only problem with defining "line carry" as the length of fly line out of the rod tip is that this length constantly changes as you haul. You might have 50 feet out of the rod tip prior to the haul, but only 48 feet after the haul. Are you carrying 48 feet or 50 feet? Paul Arden brought this up on the sexyloops board at one time and said that he measured line carry from the hauling hand because this length stays constant throughout the stroke. It made sense to me and so this is how I started measuring it. Like you say, neither right or wrong. It just happens to work for me.
You make a good point though about the line between the hauling hand and the rod tip not actually being aerialized. But is there a distinction between "aerializing line" and "carrying line"? All of the line in front of the line hand is affected by the hauls whether that line is in or out of the rod tip. Even the line inside the rod tip has to be controlled - increase line speed, reduce slack, etc. So I wonder if this nine feet of line in the rod tip can be included in the definition of "carrying line". I don't know if it makes sense to do this or not. Just asking. What do you think about this? I hope some other casting nuts/gurus provide some input as well.
Ty
Ty,This is a very civilized discussion,compared to the Sexy loops threads........and can go on for pages and pages, but for brevity,s sake, I will buy your and





















*Paul Arden,s "carrying line" by measuring from the hauling hand, but gotta stick with my belief that "aierialized".......which is often used,gotta describe line outside the tip, and which does not necessarily include a haul in the sequence........matter is,some european distance casters do not use hauls, I have been led to believe! Even Lefty has been known to use an inches only fast haul on his delivery,and throw the whole line{90 ft.} Course he usually demos with a 7 wt.,while the discussion here involves 9ft.5 wt.rods/lines! In the final reality,all we do in carrying/aierializing line mass and subsequent line wt.,is to bend,load,unload,and fire the yarn fly down course in an accurate manner! The amount of line outside the tip becomes unmanageable at some point,when the whole shooting distance{ a ratio of approximately 50 % of aierialized length} of the cast reachs a sweet spot of equalibrium balance.....a feeling that is impossible to define.........as we are both discussing! Guess that puts us in real dangerous territory! With your interest and understanding, I hope you will come to the Spring Fling,and enjoy the casting events,where we can continue this learning experience....... Also, Why not register for the Cherokee N.C. tournament,as I will be doing shortly,and lets all take a whack at the course?...... Indian country,but we are tough,we fishermen/er.women! Regards, Rocketroy *Paul only carrys the 90 ft of line......by holding on to his backing knot! ........ course he,s only got 80 ft. in the air!......sorry, could not resist it! RR.

[Rocketroy]

OOOOOOOOPS....... That space is reserved for a picture of me learning how to type! Rocketroy

[Rocketroy]

a lot of this depends on your rod and your line. Faster rods generally can pick up more line. Longer heads can carry more line.
don't focus on that. If you cast properly you can cast well into the backing.
I prefer the faster rods, but it's not really important. And I have one line that won't cast properly until you get about 70 feet in the air, which is a pain in the butt and probably spooks the fish.
Do what's comfortable for you, your rod and your line and you'll be fine.
HELP!,Saltwaterflyfisherman,Please plan on attending our NGTO Spring Fling,and demonstrate how to cast properly and throw into the backing.......to date,our best recorded cast has been in the mid 80 ft.,from "o" against the tape,to the yarn fly! Perhaps your experience,as indicated by your screen name, is with wt.7 and up equipment,shooting heads,weighted flies,etc.. A totally different potential, as compared to 5 wt./wf casting .......at least as practiced by our members and guests! We welcome you to sign up as an open or pro. contestant,for the March,4,2006 day of fun and fellowship on the banks of the Chattahoochee river near Buford,Ga.! Yall come,Ya hear,Rocketroy

[Fish Gazer]

I have been starting out practicing like Ty has mentioned, tight loops, less power, and just trying to develop a repeatable cast. Its harder then it sounds when you are trying to ever so slightly speed things up and change your casting plane. Kent showed me kind of the same routine, kind of a "least power" cast just to get the basic motion. When I first started casting, everything I watched and read was by Lefty. I was more a side arm style, but have recently tried to move towards a more vertical plane for a basic fishing cast. Recently, I hit a big number feet wise, (measured), but don't even want to mention it. This morning however, I could not cast within 15 ft of my longest cast. Maybe it was the sun in my eyes ;) the 36 degree temp, or the wind, but its deflating to go out one time and show improvement, then the next time back up.

It seems like if you carry more line, it really complicates trying to rotate later in the casting stroke, as well as the timing of the haul.

This thread was an eye opener to me. I believe Chuckwagon mentioned there is basically an infinite amount of line you can shoot based on the amount of line carry. I assumed most distance casters were shooting 60-70 foot of line. Oyster kind of sums it up in his post, thanks.


Lefty did use a 7wgt when I watched him effortlessy cast 100 ft at the shallow water expo the last 2 years. He is unbelievable. Watch when he hands the rod over to someone in the audience if you go. When I saw him, he had 60-70 ft of line on the floor, and when a novice goes to pick it up, you know the results if they dont pull some line in before they start. I am sure he did'nt do that on purpose, did he? LOL I am sure it was a joke if he did. Big stripping guide on that rod too.

Does anyone recommend slip, do you think it adds anything to the cast?

I am going fishing now, what a nice day!!!



Thanks everyone, Ty, Chuckwagon, Jeff, SaltWater, Oyster, FireWalker, Fish, Kent, Tom, Scott, and especially Will, err I mean Roy.



Jeff

[Jackster]

Recently, I hit a big number feet wise, (measured), but don't even want to mention it. This morning however, I could not cast within 15 ft of my longest cast.

One step back... two steps forward!

That isn't unusual at all. You will hit a wall that you just can't seem to climb then suddenly you leap right over it! (into the next wall eventually!)
That distance will come back, and usually with a little added distance.
Don't be discouraged, it's all part of the game and we've all been there!

[Kent]

Roy, I hope you get to see that "easily into the backing" 100'+ cast at the Fling, but.....

Here's a story...
A few years ago, Carl & I did an advanced casting seminar at the FFF Conclave. When asked what they wanted to learn, virtually every participant answered that they wanted to throw longer distances. Then we asked how far they could currently throw. The 1st several casters answered 65' to the whole line. We then told the rest of the students that we would be using the 100' tape we'd brought to assess progress. The balance of the students said their current casts were in the 45' - 60' range. The second group of estimates turned out to be much more accurate.

[chuckwagon]

That wall thingy we say we are hitting is prolly the combination of all sorts of things. Improper technique with lack of muscle memory.

I find when i get tired I get ugly on the casting. That makes you kinda determined to get one more good cast in before you stop! Then it gets real ugly :eek: .

Best thing to do when you get tired or are starting to cast poorly on the long distance is stop. Take a break. Then go to casting for accuracy on the short distance,say 15, 20 feet. This will relax you mentally.

Remember, this is like training a dog. It never ends. You can never stop!!

The more repititions the better you should get. Most people(me) just don't have the time or patience to keep at it!

Looking forward to finding that wall! All this talk has geared me up to some long casting!!

Trey
CW

[Ty]

Gazer,

Don't worry about having an off day here or there. You're going to have days where everything is clicking and you're throwing bombs over the horizon. Then you'll have days where you can't cast past your shoelaces.
When I have one of those days I usually put the distance casting on the shelf and work on something else as Chuckwagon suggests. You'll only make it worse by trying to force the issue.

As for "slip", I can't say that I focus on this specifically. But I do focus on delaying turnover as late as possible in the stroke. I think slip would almost have to occur as long as the caster focuses on delaying turnover.

Rocketroy, I am going to try and make it to both the Spring Fling and to the casting event in Cherokee. Look forward to meeting you and others on this board there.

[saltwaterflyfisher]

Actually I had planned on being a guest tyer at your last Fling. My nephews, who love me, woke me early in the morning. When my brother and sister in law woke, I went back to bed and slept til noon. LOL
Anyway I bought some land north of Atlanta and I'm building a house. Actually I'm just sending checks.
I mostly use an 8 weight. But I can do the same thing with my 4.
I have shooting heads and so on, but mostly I use a flooting or intermediate line. It's mostly about doing it correctly.
The truth is that most casts for fish don't need to be big. My guide in the bahamas puts me within 30/40 feet of fish. Tarpon is the same way usually. They are right on you when you see them. The biggest tarpon when I was around was caught by my buddy who was sitting on the poling platform. I missed them. He just threw the fly straight down and hooked a monster.
I'll try to make it to the next Fling. Oh, and I plan to be there for the Atlanta Fly Fishing thing put on by the Florida outfit if I can.



HELP!,Saltwaterflyfisherman,Please plan on attending our NGTO Spring Fling,and demonstrate how to cast properly and throw into the backing.......to date,our best recorded cast has been in the mid 80 ft.,from "o" against the tape,to the yarn fly! Perhaps your experience,as indicated by your screen name, is with wt.7 and up equipment,shooting heads,weighted flies,etc.. A totally different potential, as compared to 5 wt./wf casting .......at least as practiced by our members and guests! We welcome you to sign up as an open or pro. contestant,for the March,4,2006 day of fun and fellowship on the banks of the Chattahoochee river near Buford,Ga.! Yall come,Ya hear,Rocketroy