DRIFT [Archive] - NGTO Message Board

GEOFF

05-07-06, 03:31 PM

I have been working on using a more vertical casting stroke when distance casting. I usually cast on a more 45 degree angle with an open stance. Now I'm toying around and giving this casting streight over the top thing a try partly becasue of a suggestion from Carl Warmouth. Carl thanks for such a good lesson. In practicing this more verticle style I feel I get a deeper bend in the rod and can really feel the rod load on the back cast. I have also due to practicing this way corrected a lot of tracking issues. My tracking was off a bit but coming streight over has the whole cast lined up and over all I feel I use less effort while making the cast.

To get to my question; and hopefully there are other casting junkies out there or even some FFF folk, because of this what seems to be a shoter casting storke compaired open casting style, what is the best way to apply a drift in this verticle plain on your back cast? I have always been of the thought of getting your back cast up and as the line unrolls drifting the rod up and back. Any thoughts?

Looking foward to seeing where this thread goes...

Kent

05-11-06, 07:38 AM

That vertical style is deceptively powerful, and accurate.

For the drift, just think of following the bottom loop of the backcast back. That really means to drift the rod butt up and back while drifting the rod tip down (toward a horizontal rod position) at the same time.

Take a look at this (http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/extendeddrift.shtml) and this (http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/cnlpaul2.shtml).

In this vertical style, I think the drift is a drift of rod angle, rather than rod getting the rod farther back. What I try to do is to get the rod flat - that allows for more rod butt/tip rotation in the forward cast (and that's where tip/line speed comes from in this style cast.

(Carl may have a different opinion on this, but if he does, he's wrong :) )

Warmouth

05-11-06, 11:56 AM

Me wrong? Well, there was that one time.

Geoff, there is nothing like taking the FFF certification to totally screw with your casting, eh?

I'm glad to hear that you are toying around with the vertical style. It took me a lonnnnng time to get it right, and I'm really still a student of it myself. Being of the Lefty Kreh generation taught us all a style that is hard to break. I am firmly sold on the closed stance, vertical style now though.

You hit the nail on the head as to some of the greatest virtues of that stlye. You can put a mean bend in that rod, can't you? The square stance used in vertical casting corrects the tracking problems frequently seen in an open stance. If you find that you do still have tracking problems, try putting your right foot (or casting side foot) slightly forward. This foot position virtually eliminates any hip rotation.

As far as drift I'm afraid I agree with Kent. One thing that may help is to pantomime the drift over and over while visualizing the back cast. Imagine that once you stop the rod tip high on the back cast the bottom of the loop begins to fall because of gravity. Follow that falling bottom leg with the rod tip. The elbow goes up, the hand goes up, the butt of the rod goes up, and the tip slowly travels down to a point where it is nearly horizontal. (Be sure that your haul hand smoooooothly follows up as well so you don't get slack between the line hand and rod, and so that you will be ready for a nice long smooth haul on the forward cast.) You are accomplishing two things. You are keeping in contact with the end of the line by keeping slack (or sag) out of the back cast so that as you begin your forward cast you are immediately moving the end of the line. You are also lengthening the stroke.

It's a really fun way to cast. Totally relaxing and very energy efficient. And man, you can really bang 'em when you get 'hold of the concept. Good luck.

Carl

GEOFF

05-11-06, 04:36 PM

Kent - I went out today and tried the "rod angle" drift - rod butt up and tip down - instead of getting the rod back as much as was trying to do as you a im going to go with this as it worked out pretty good today. The thing is now (today) i could see the foward loop even though it was JUMPING out there was wanting to tail. (sometimes would) i figure im just turning over to soon.
if you know of any other causes let me know.

Carl - funny you mention the "Lefty style" even though i cast on the lawn and sometimes on the water verticle i still find myself fishing more on a 45 angle in most situations but thats a diffrent post.
i found to get the line hand (haul) back im having to move it back almost an arch.. now that i think about it keeping the slack out here may be where that foward loop wants to tail, ill pay more attention to that in the next practice session. The tracking is dead on which I think is why i can feel the rod load more in this style vs. on an angle. you were right on when you suggested for me to try and go verticle. I really find this style more relaxing. When i was practicing with a freind of mine he stated that it looked effortless. He too is now working on going vertice. which is a good thing - 2 casting junkies working out the kinks.
Prepairing for the FFF certification hasnt screwed up my casting just what i practice, no more angles or curve cast type of practice. what it has screwed up is water time.. I havent been fishing but twice since i was @ Callaway, i gave it up to allow that fishing time for FFF prep.

Im looking foward to june 9th @ the conclave - i saw where Mac Brown will be giving a casting demo, i think you and i talked about this - i have been reading the Casting Angles book on and off since April.

Fish Gazer

05-12-06, 09:02 PM

Hi Kent, Carl, Geoff

Do not the distance casters (100 plus feet casting dudes) kind of do a combination of vertical and lateral? I remember seeing the elbow drift back(way back) rather then then just a straight up straight down motion when veiwing longer casts. Kent elbowed me in the ribs demonstrating the power of going verticle, I will remember it always! JK I do remember the example. This is where I start getting confused, imagine that. Oh and a trying to do this for me really screwed my tracking up!

Great question

Jeff

Kent

05-15-06, 06:32 PM

Geoff, yeah, it's likely an early rotation of the rod that makes the tail try to happen. The other error that's easy to make when learning this style is to stop dropping the elbow on the forward cast and substitute a push with the arm - that doesn't work either.

Sorry about the ribs, Jeff. I don't understand your tracking comment tho'.

Fish Gazer

05-15-06, 07:20 PM

Hey Kent

I think this cast is much easier to be accurate with, and easier to put more bend in the rod, but

If I try to move the elbow back for drift as part of the cast, as well as up and down, I tend to track from out to in, on the forward part of the cast.

I am assuming that doing this will increase the casting stroke?
But thats only for casts over 120 ft or more at least with a five weight...;)

Jeff

Kent

05-15-06, 09:30 PM

OK, I think that's what everybody is saying - the vertical style is very good for tracking & accuracy. When you trty to add in the longer stroke to the side, you'll mess with tracking.

Now, the question is - how much farther do you cast when you add the "slide" to the vertical?

As far as the 120' 5-wt stuff - there are a number of people doing it with several different styles, some strokes short and some long.

As long as the stroke is long enough to allow a straight-line rod tip path & not cause a tailing loop, a long stroke isn't necessarily better or able to throw farther than a shorter stroke.

Fish Gazer

05-15-06, 10:22 PM

Thank you Kent

Thats exactly where I was headed, I just did not ask it right. I agree with everything stated, I just know when I add elbow movement back and forth laterally, I have problems with tracking and I sure am nowhere near 90 ft with a five weight. Right now I am not sure the slide helps at all.

I do know when casting laterally, when I add drift it makes a big difference in distance. I was assuming the same could be done with a vertical cast. I found it difficult to change from a lateral Lefty Kreh style, (what I learned first) to more of a Borger, or Kreiger style. After watching others, I tried to combine the two, pretty much unsuccessful to this point, but I enjoy trying.

I find it remarkable that there is no one way as far as form for competitive distance casters or others. Thanks for reminding me of that. When I have seen Raejeff in video, he reaches way back as do others. Is the answer do what works best for you?

Thanks again

Jeff

GEOFF

05-15-06, 11:37 PM

Kent, Gazer
Thanks for the reply. I would have never thought that "forgetting to drop the elbow" on the foward cast could be the cause. I was of the idea of early rod rotation. I will check this out tomorrow if the weather holds as well as the slack in the haul as i stated earlier.
Myself being a more on an "angle caster" in fishing situations have had a difficult time adjusting, but what i have found in toying around with this is my tracking lined up streighter than its ever been. I'm no where near 100' and thats with a 7wt midflex but after casting verticle for a while i can throw some line out with ease on the angle but the tracking is off. As of today i have to say i prefer the vertical style when it comes to distance. I am of thought and correct me if im wrong, the better the tracking the more of a load i can put in the rod.
As far as the drift in a verticle position i am under the impression that the elbow doesnt have to drift back far but rather to get the back cast up and drift up and back slightly while rotating the rod tip downward to horizotal? In order to drift back "far" you would have to apply the stop SOONER perse to have the motion remaining to be able to drift back and if you go back to far wouldnt your elbow placement case the foward tracking to come out of line? AM I TRACKING OK WITH THIS?

Kent

05-16-06, 06:54 AM

I find it remarkable that there is no one way as far as form for competitive distance casters or others............ Is the answer do what works best for you? (Gazer) Exactly, substance vs. style.

Geoff, the lack of the "elbow drop" is a mistake I'm prone to make. It's not that it's necessarily a problem in and of itself, but rather that (in this style) it puts the rod rotation early and tries to "push" afterwards - not good.

As of today i have to say i prefer the vertical style when it comes to distance. I am of thought and correct me if im wrong, the better the tracking the more of a load i can put in the rod. (Geoff) Actually, I'd say the vertical style is better for tracking. And since a cast with good tracking is most efficient, it often translates into a longer cast. I think the reason we get more of a bend in the rod is because the muscles are being used closer to the body where they have the most power and because we are using the bigger trunk muscles.

As far as tracking, I think you're getting it straight. Only thing I'd add is that good tracking is possible with most any casting style, it's just harder with some and easier with others.

Warmouth

05-16-06, 11:16 PM

Gazer,
One other thing I'd like to say about the tracking issue...
From time to time I have a problem with tracking on the forward cast when I use the vertical casting style also. My problem comes from putting too much power in the forward cast. I cannot cast "hard". I know some great casters who do (Kent, Jason Stacy, Chad Newbolt) but I can't do it. When I do the rod tip just waggles out of control. It's like putting a 454 in a Chevette and tromping the gas on a slick road. It just gets out of control. I haven't seen you cast this way but I'm wondering what happens when if you back off the power. Is it on every fw cast or just your delivery?
Car

Fish Gazer

05-17-06, 08:59 AM

Hi Carl, thank you

This am with out any drift, and just straight up and down, I made some very smooth casts that went a long way, given the effort. You are right about the casting too hard, at least in my case. When I attempt to haul faster, its seems I also try to cast faster. When I can just increase the speed of the haul, and not increase the casting speed is when I do best. It is very hard to separate the two. I tend to jerk the rod just like I am jerking the line. I know the haul length and speed should mirror the casting stroke but I do not think mine always reflect each other. Is there a routine to work on the two? Yes, Kent does bang the rod, with very impressive results, LOL

Thank you

Jeff

GEOFF

05-17-06, 10:43 AM

I set out yday for a casting session when i was able to step out of the office and probably had the best day in a while, thanks for the help everyone. remembering to drop the elbow was key. Gazer im the same way as you described.
I tend to jerk the rod just like I am jerking the line. I know the haul length and speed should mirror the casting stroke but I do not think mine always reflect each other.
I do find that if i dont cast hard i have better line control on the BC and the FC. i find adding in the drift adds to my ability to not have to cast as hard plus lines everything up for the foward cast when distance casting that is.
As far as my hauls - im not sure that they mirror in length when compaired to my casting stoke either. It will be intresting to see Kent and Carls response.

Fish Gazer

05-17-06, 11:52 AM

GEOFF

05-17-06, 12:48 PM

I hear ya Gazer and im sure some folk are scratching there heads @ my posts as well.. I've been reading a good book on casting that i would suggest to any one that asked. Casting Angles by Mac Brown. A bit detailed - ive had to re-read a few things but this will be a book that i can see myself referencing over and over.

Fish Gazer

05-17-06, 04:14 PM

I recently heard of Mac Brown's book Geoff, I believe it was from one of your posts. Isn't he going to be at the Conclave at Callaway?

I was hoping to take David Diaz class on sat at the conclave, but of course I am working on the 10th, I just checked the calender again, still working...... There is also a distance casting class Sat am that would probably be great. How fast do those classes fill up Kent, Carl?

Jeff

GEOFF

05-17-06, 05:22 PM

yes he is on the schedule and i look foward to seeing his demo. As far as sat goes you could always call in sick.. HAHA. I plan on taking friday off and spending friday and sat @ Callaway.

Rocketroy

05-18-06, 08:54 AM

Hi Geoff

What every you do man, don't answer the door! That is to say don't read my posts. I know someone is scratching their head with a couple of my comments, but for sure I do not mean to confuse the issue, sorry Kent, Carl. My goal this summer, is to read 10 books on casting, that way I might read 4 or 5. Any suggestions?

I read a really good post last night about drift on the forward cast, obviously just before the back cast, not to be confused with creep. It is something I have not conciously tried. Any comments.......Kent, Carl, Roy, Jackster, Scott?

Thank you Geoff

Jeff Gazer,Et Al., one of the toughest things to do in this world is to learn a timing,power and movement dynamic,using the spoken word! Even the use of often only seconds-long-video clips are poor learning tools.......when we try to learn casting techniques,from those who have mastered this mostly delicate art! Each year at the NGTO fling affords an opportunity to cast against the tape,as well as to test accuracy,in an equalized situation,that uses Masters stds., in course and equipment,and to date the best recorded distance {9 ft.5 wt.rod,5 wf line,7 & 1/2 ft.leader} is a little aver 90 ft.often after many casts during relaxed practice shots! There,s something about those numbers along a tape,that messes up even the worlds best casters on occasion! I would encourage all who yearn to or are capable of the magic 100 ft. shot,to attend the Conclave,where we can all observe what it takes to put into action those words,written on these pages....... perhaps the evening of the NGTO BBQ,would afford a fun time to hold an observation-of-styles opportunity of learning. My goal in encouragng casting as a lightly competitive sport would be advanced,as well as my on constantly evolving skill level,by this,and if not possible at that particular time,there will be other pop-up opportunities,as there always are,when Fly Rods are strung up! I plan on dragging a few targets and a 100 ft. tape along with me,and if the Conclave poleeezzz don,t lock me up,we will find a place and time to have some casting FUN! I do hope you can negotiate a day or two off so you can attend and seek some widely vairiant answers to your casting questions. Regards,and Y,all Come......ya hear!...... Rocketroy

Fish Gazer

05-18-06, 09:35 AM

Roy, uh, once in awhile I am in the 70 ft range. I would like to get in the 80-90 ft range, not for fishing purposes really, but just for lets say a goal. I am sure it would be a tremendous help to be near some of the very talented casters here in the souteast.

thanks

Jeff

GEOFF

05-18-06, 11:55 AM

70 ft with a 5wt is a pretty good poke.. I'm lucky to hit 80 with a 7wt.. I havent tried distance casting with my 5wt but will after the conclave. Rocketroy, I am hoping to get around a few other casting junkies and futher my understanding of the cast. I think you have a great idea as stated in your message about "having a little casting fun" on friday...

Warmouth

05-19-06, 10:19 AM

Guys, One of the distance casting seminars at the conclave is being done by Jason Stacy. Some of you know him. He works at Callaway and did reeeeaaal well in the oln ff masters competition. He is truly, truly GOOD at this vertical style of distance casting. He learned it straight from Gary Borger himself (we all did but it really stuck with Jason). Jason has spent HUNDREDS of hours fine tuning every aspect of this style. He consistently casts in the 115' range. That's with a 5 weight. Jason is the only person (as far as I know) to ever do one of these "for a fee" clinics that is not a FFF Master. David Diaz asked him to do it. BTW, the people doing these pay clinics do not get any money from them. The fee goes back to the Southeaastern Council. I'm not plugging Jason for any gain of mine or his, I'm just saying it because it will benefit anyone wanting to learn this style. (Just in case there were any suspicions).

As far as hauling goes...
"I tend to jerk the rod just like I am jerking the line. I know the haul length and speed should mirror the casting stroke but I do not think mine always reflect each other. " You should not jerk the haul. Imagine playing a violin. A nice, smooth, easy stoke. Also, tell me where your haul hand is at the completion of the haul, that is after the "tug", not on the follow back to the rod. At your side? In front of you? Chest level? Waist level?

Carl

GEOFF

05-19-06, 12:36 PM

Carl thanks for the info on jason and the clinic. Ill have to go to the web site and check out the line up.
on your question where is my haul ending before i feed back the line - on the back cast the hand is chest level completely extended if not just shy of it.
on the foward cast my hand is @ my side. i personally dont jerk the rod or line but try and be as smooth as possible. If i catch myself jerking then usually there is something else im doing wrong that has resulted in that.

I was given a practice routine by a freind where you cast as slow as possible @ 30 - 45' once you are able to keep the line moving you add the haul and keep it as slow as possible.. Then you speed the whole process up. I usually start all my sessions this way and the line length may very some but this truly has helped me smooth everything out..

thanks again Carl and i look foward to your response on the hauls.

Warmouth

05-19-06, 12:53 PM

Geoff,

That's what I figured you'd say. That's what most people do. To get an ever deeper load in the rod without applying more power with the rod hand try bringing your haul hand down to your side, and even behind you on both casting strokes. Yes, the line will be across your chest on the back cast stroke.
In my particular case this gives me an additional 7" of haul. My haul is 4'2" with my haul hand extended in front and 4'9" when extended to he side/behind. Does that make a difference? Absolutely it does. Anything that gets more energy stored in the rod makes a difference. In this case it is simply a matter of adjusting technique. It requires no more energy from you.
Give it a try.

Carl

Kent

05-19-06, 07:12 PM

To get an ever deeper load in the rod.....additional 7" of haul... Does that make a difference? Absolutely it does. Anything that gets more energy stored in the rod .....
Oouu....we may have to talk about this one, mizzta warmo......

Warmouth

05-19-06, 11:45 PM

Come 5:00 PM Saturday night I'm heading to Fla to put this stuff to real use.Let's do it now or wait a week!

Kent

05-20-06, 04:46 AM

You dog. I don't know if this one can be settled that quickly. Even tho' I'm really quibbling one little point, I know you casting geeks - you'll cling to this for days even in spite of evidence to the contrary.......

As to the length of the haul, I basically agree (like almost, ya know). I too use the long haul on longest casts. My belief is that it does 2 things - removes slack and accelerates the line. And the extra length helps removing any slack, but it's the speed thing that really makes the haul work. But if one could get the speed at the proper time with the short haul, then that would work too.....

So like I say, it's the speed thing, not "getting a deeper load in the rod." In fact, I think what really makes the haul best is the fact that it gets additional line speed without getting a deeper load, i.e. bend, in the rod - because a deeper load/bend will open up the loop.

Yeah, yeah, I can see you waving your hands, mumbling to yourself, beginning to pantomine, saying "Now wait just a minute......" But I'll be out fishing long before you read this (on your banker's hours schedule), so consider this before you rant to much - how come you can throw a tighter, faster loop with a haul than without?!!

Warmouth

05-20-06, 03:57 PM

Geoff - your thread has been officially hijacked.

Kent,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming in here today and telling me how right I am and how wrong you are. I'll be holding my breath as I wait for the public acknowledgement of that. (Y'all all believe that I'm sure).

OK then, I agree that line speed is the objective and I'm persuaded by you that a fast haul adds line speed. So when you say "so consider this before you rant to much - how come you can throw a tighter, faster loop with a haul than without?!!", I'll say "Line speed". I'll give that to you. But, it is not mutually exclusive. No part of casting is. Especially not when we get into it to the point that we are tweaking small subtle things to gain a foot or two.

To elaborate my point, the line and the rod both have potential energy and one has an effect on the other. The rod's potential energy is called elastic potential energy, like a spring, bow, atl-atl, rubberband, etc. The deeper the rod bends the more energy is stored in the rod. Since the rod has more mass at the butt section, the potential energy increases exponentially as the load goes deeper into the rod. As the loop unrolls there is an increasing amount of static line off the tip (right?) The rod bends under the weight of that static line. A longer haul is certainly going to bend the rod deeper, resulting in more energy to move the line (think atl-atl again). If it dosesn't, it would be some type of natural phenomena that defies every other aspect of physics (or at least the high-school level of physics I can remember.)

Now about this comment..."because a deeper load/bend will open up the loop." Yes, if all other things remain the same it will, but we make all sorts of accomodations to keep the rod tip traveling straight. As long as the rod tip travels straight your'e good to go right?

PS When you left haydin said, " Wow, that was awesome." I naturally assumed she was referring to our vast knowledge and passion about fly fishing. Then she finished the sentence by saying "A girl could get hours of entertainment watching two stubborn men quibble. Y'all say girls are catty."

Carl

Fish Gazer

05-20-06, 09:33 PM

I reread all this and it makes sense, that is upanddownational or verticalational casting, but a couple things. With a vertical cast, with a shorter stroke length does translational energy become more important when compared to rotational? I also agreed with Kent about the double haul increasing line speed but then I thought of the very simple lateral casting exercise I was taught when learning the double haul. You can load the rod by using the haul alone, and basically moving the the rod back and forth, not fast enough to make it load to any extent. So is it both, or is Carl saying the line speed directly increases the load on the rod? Or is pulling down on the line down at an angle greater then zero applying a load directly to the line tip? (from the weight of the line and friction on the tip?) Then I had some other questions about elasticity and how it affects rotational and or translational energy in a cast.

Sensational

Jeff

Fish Gazer

05-21-06, 07:50 PM

But then I thought, the faster I increase the line speed and the further I haul, the more the rod loads........therefore its line speed..... If I move the line very slowly the rod does not load. Anyone? Is this kind of like a pulley, so many feet of line per second equals a certain amount of energy transferred to the rod tip. And all that line out there and the rod loaded are we talking about PE, potential energy as well as viscous friction with line acceleration with air drag, even lift. I am thinking outloud now so I will shut up now. You asked for it Kent LOL

Jeff

05-23-06, 10:06 AM

Hey guys,

Could you elaborate on the statement that "a deeper load/bend will open up the loop"?

If, as Carl said, all other factors remain the same (I'm thinking specifically about stroke length here) and only the bending of the rod is considered, then wouldn't the loop close and tail rather than open up?

A deeper bend would cause the rod tip to track in a concave path unless you lengthened the stroke length. Am I right on this or off base?

Ty

GEOFF

05-23-06, 12:17 PM

Ty i have to say that your statement is what i was thinking as well.

"then wouldn't the loop close and tail rather than open up?"

The question i have here is - when casting verticle how do you lengthen your stroke to make that correction? I know drift / slip but one can only go so far in this style of casting w/o getting the body involved. Casting Lefty style one can get the rod waaaayyyy back.. The only way i can see is dropping your casting side leg back to open the stance to gain balance and using your body as part of the drift as shoulder and arm movement is limited.