Mountaintown Creek

[LBRB45]

I'm looking for all the information that I can get about Mountaintown Creek. I have never been there, but i'm intrested into checking it out. I would like to get some directions, (i live in Calhoun) tips, rules, regulations, and any need to know information. Is this stream a publicly stocked stream?
Thanks guys.

[TroutManJoe]

the section of mountaintown from where 282 crosses the creek on down to carters lake is public. The other option is to park at betty gap. Look for a brown sign across the road from the betty gap area that says "Mountaintown Creek Trail" It's somewhat of a hike, but well worth it. Those are the best two ways into mountaintown I know of.....

[TroutManJoe]

it's artificial lures only in the upper sections.....

[LBRB45]

Where is Hill Lake located at? I can't seem to find it on the map.

[dblhaul]

Pm me. Thanks.

[TroutManJoe]

Hills Lake is just upstream from the point at which Bear Creek dumps into Mountaintown. There is a parking area at bear creek, but no trail to guide you around to mountaintown. There's also a road, but I'm nearly positive it's gated, and locked...

[GregLS]

I remember reading somewhere that FS rd 282 had been closed due to a land slide some time back last year. Does anyone know if that was true and if so has it been repaired and reopened?

Thx

[dblhaul]

Mountaintown WMA is a bit confusing since Riggs Rd actually leads directly into the WMA entrance. The Coosa Valley TU chapter had a agreement with Mr. Riggs to have the gate stay open during day-light hours. Coosa Valley did hundred of hours of restoration and thousands of dollars of stream rennovation. The last time I fished by going through the gate, I two guys that were renting a cabin pull up into the WMA parking area and attempt to play property owners with attitude. The gate has since become modified and is shut, and locked upon entering and leaving. Bear Creek primitive camp ground is access. It will make sense when see the path..Wish you guys would start using pms.

[Fletch_W]

I posted alot of good information about Mountaintown on Georgia River Fishing.com about 2 weeks ago, but their admin deleted it and banned me because it had too much information.

[the dude]

I'm a property owner at hills lake. the gate is closed.there is no access unless invited,or willing to make the 2 mi. walk to the trail head.the road to the trail is private,but most owners wont hassle a walking flyfisherman.the only other access is buddy cove.it takes about 1 hr.to ride up on the cohutta rd.I'm new to fly fishing and NTGO. I've thought of having "guests" or an occas. NGTO day up there.I've only been there 3 mo. so i'm not quite settled in. look foward to hosting some of you in the near future,specially those with great patience and adesire to teach."the dude abides"

[mb90535im]

I'm a property owner at hills lake. the gate is closed.there is no access unless invited,or willing to make the 2 mi. walk to the trail head.the road to the trail is private,but most owners wont hassle a walking flyfisherman.

What a mess! I can't think of any reason in the world why that road should be "private".

[the dude]

apparently the DNR nor forrest service were willing to maintain the road.somefolks, not enviromentaly conscious ,woul leave beer cans and assorted garbagearound.some vandalism ,some stray bullets ,owners got fed up and the road was gated[legaly].also abit of poching of deer and bear.

[Bigfishbryan]

Hey Dude sent you a p.m.

[GregoryWithrow]

In actuality, Riggs Road had never been closed through any legal means. There has never been a public hearing that closed the road. There are many rumors surrounding this issue and I invite anyone to discuss this with me and/or the Gilmer County Commissioners.

During the last public discussion on this some years ago, the county's position what to remain mute on the subject. I have the newspaper article from the Time's Courier.

The question arises of what is reasonable access to the WMA. I would point out that Riggs Road runs through both private property and the WMA along the route to the camping area at the head of the lake.

The logic that beer cans and trash are a reason to close a road is falacial. If such logic held true, I would be within my rights to close off Gate's Chapel for the half mile on which we on both sides of the road.

I do not think that is the proper solution. Access to public lands cannot be denied due to the mistakes of a few.

I invite further discourse on this issue.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings,

I realize this is short notice for most of you.

There will be a board of commissioners meeting at 5:00 pm on 13 July 2006.

During the public forum, I will raise the issue of the legality of the closure of Rigg's Road, the actual status of the road, and access to the area above Hill's Lake, including the WMA camp ground.

I invite everyone to attend in supporting the opening of this road. I also invite any dissenting opinion to be voiced at this time.

Any questions can be directed to me via posts here, email or by phone.

GregoryWithrow@hotmail.com
(706) 636-1286

[mb90535im]

Greetings,

I realize this is short notice for most of you.

There will be a board of commissioners meeting at 5:00 pm on 13 July 2006.

During the public forum, I will raise the issue of the legality of the closure of Rigg's Road, the actual status of the road, and access to the area above Hill's Lake, including the WMA camp ground.

I invite everyone to attend in supporting the opening of this road. I also invite any dissenting opinion to be voiced at this time.

Any questions can be directed to me via posts here, email or by phone.

GregoryWithrow@hotmail.com
(706) 636-1286

I wish you success. Please keep us posted.

[markland]

Actually the road is private since it goes thru several private properties all the way back, it actually only borders up to the WMA in 2 places and does not actually run thru the WMA. That area in there is some of the most beautiful areas around and the constant access by the public has definitely degraded the scenery and habitat in that area. it is also a very isolated area and there are many unsuitable actions going on in there as well. The land owners around that area have had a tremendous amount of problems with poachers, trespassing, littering and shooting from the road. I can understand their frustration, not to mention the unbridled ATV use into the WMA thru the road that has definitely caused some serious trail problems. There is not an actual campground in there, but just an open spot at the trailhead that people have used to camp in. Easy access into a wilderness area is not always a good thing and limiting the access will enhance the experience and enjoyment of those that enjoy true nature. Making an area easily accessible will degrade this experience and directly affect the personal experience and enjoyment of these areas. The more people that are in there, the less resources are available and the more problems you will have with trash, debris and damage to the area. Keeping it wild by limiting the access is a good thing for this area and will preserve the area and fishing as well for those to truly enjoy the "wild" expereince. That trailhead is easily accessed thru Bear Creek and you can walk in from the road as well. Too many areas in the WMA have been "ruined" by easy access and just do not offer the experiences and enjoyment that limited access can offer. I think everyone that enjoys nature and the wild can appreciate this and will support limited access into many of these areas. Anything worth experiencing is worth applying a little effort to it and also enhances the personal satisfaction of the experience. Who wants to fish in a stream with everyone else, when a little work and walking can reward you with solitude and peace. Mark

[Path_Less_Traveled]

I think the road should remain closed... and those who wish to use the area would hike in... i realize that my opinion is likely against the majority (but it really doesnt matter since i'm not a Gilmer Co resident anyway).

[dblhaul]

should provide public access to the WMA..I was wrong. Mountaintown problems within the WMA transpired under the" Camaro rule"-which states that any spot accessible by a Camaro will soon be littered with busted styrofoam coolers, worm buckets, and dirty diapers. Solitude and clean land seem to be decided by how many steps it takes to get AWAY FROM THE ACCESS of any public land.. Not to many years ago, easy access led to the freestone bottom being raped for it's stone to be used in residential landscapes. 4 wheelers running amuck and destroying the creek bottom, banks, and trails. My fishing on Mountaintown WMA have been done since the gate was closed. I have always found the area pristine, quite, and beautiful. Careful what you wish for, this is a small, fragile stream.

[Loopdawg]

If this area can be "healed" by keeping the gate closed, then in my opinion, that is well worth the extra effort to approach the WMA from another way. I've never had the privledge of fishing there, but it sounds like an area worthy of protection.

[mb90535im]

I tend to disagree with the "keep it closed" concensus, but only because I am getting older, I like to hike a good ways upstream from the grassy area before fishing, and the extra of couple of miles put it just about out of reach of this tired old soul. Maybe we could allow "senior non-bubba beer can tossing considerate-types" only to drive to the parking area.

What we really need (and it hurts my Libertarian leanings to say it) is more enforcement.

[GregoryWithrow]

The logic that closing the road off is falacial.

What if we blocked off Gates Chapel because of litter on the half-mile stretch that we own which includes some 300 acres on both sides?

Poaching occurs on our property too. All we can do is enforce the rules ourselves, which is done frequently. Of course, more enforcement would be key to solving part of our issues, but budget constraints are on of the reasons this issue has been left as it has for so long.

One thing we fail to consider in preserving this sort of site is the introduction of our children to the area. Without proper access it is very difficult to propagate the correct preservation and respectfull attitudes toward the environment. If we fail to provide this then no one will be left to carry on such traditions.

It seems to me there is much selfishness regarding the closure of this road. For me personally, I learned to fish there while I grew up in Mountaintown. I have spent the last 11 years in Germany with the U.S. Army defending the land of the opportunity, yet I come home with the idea to introduce my children to this area and found our opportunity has been taken away,not by democracy, but by the arbitrary decisions of a few.

In any case, if I were a landowner bordering on that area I would not be so willing to raise the issue of the WMA providing a seperate route. As current cases are going with imminennt domain, the decision is much more likely to be detrimental to some land owner by forcing a right away than allowing the common access that had gone before.

I would also like to point out in a recent statement from Temple Hill, who owns one side of the road where the gate stands, and I paraphrase "...I didn't give anyone permission to put the gate there and I am not sure how it has stayed there so long."

This may not have been what has been said before, but that statement occured within the last two months.

In any case, tommorrow, the Gilmer County Commissioner will activate the county attorney to delve into the legalities of the road closure.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

On another note, without the influence of my father and uncle there would be no brown trout in Dyer or Souther's Creek. Those fish originated in Jones Creek and were brought there via bucket and hard work by them more than 25 years ago.

Some game wardens caught them from Dyer Creek and moved them into the main creek.

My grandfather drove his tractor up there to help TU improve the habitat.

My point here is that with the aid of a few, the area was made much better for all.

If trash is left on the road side, pick it up. If people are acting irresponsibly, then take positive action, by informing them or reporting them.

Greg

[markland]

Greg, as much as you want the road open, there are many others that want it kept closed and we are talking about a dirt/gravel road that provides access to private property and access for the Forestry and DNR into the back side of Hills Lake, this is not a public/county paved road and does not fall under the same jurisdiction as Gates Chapel Rd. I believe the biggest compaint about the road gate is the limiting of easy access for YOU not for everyone else. If you have been using that area as long as you state, you should well know the degredation that area has fallen under when the gate was left open during construction and I am sure the TU chapter did not do all the hard work and effort so some scumbags can go in there and ride their ATV's all over the trails, leave trash, cut down trees and generally abuse the area. The DNR can in no way cover all these areas of the WMA and National Forest, do you realize how large an area that is and what little resources are available to keep an eye out for this area. Put that responsibility on the property owners there and I am sure you will see the area closed for sure, not just the gate. As I said before there are eaiser ways to hike into that area and anything worth doing is worth a little effort. Mark

[Path_Less_Traveled]

I think there are plenty of other easy access areas, and this one doesnt need it... especially since TU has worked so hard...that section is not stocked, right?... i see no reason for more easy road access to a small wild stream.

[Bigfishbryan]

You know the problem is not that the road is closed. The problem is that the landowners won't even let people walk out the road without harassing them. I say leave the gate closed but allow foot access. TU put alot of time and effort into building structures to improve the stream. According to a friend of mine this matter has been taken to court and won by the landowners. The road is considered private. I really don't blame them much for closing it. I however do think they should allow walk in access. What harm could people walking in do? As long as they stay on the road and don't trespass in order to gain access to the public section of the stream no harm no foul. The only other solution is to cut a trail in from Bear Creek. Which I wouldn't be opposed to if it is kept foot travel only. I don't favor just opening the road up to every corn chucker out there. I think the fishing will head straight downhill as soon as vehicle access is allowed.

[GregoryWithrow]

Mark,
Please do not confuse my wish for free access to tax-supported public lands for a self-serving issue. As far as I am concerned, my experiences carrying a full-combat load in the Balkans, Afghanistan and Iraq far outweigh the difficulties of my reaching the area above Hill's Lake.

The aforementioned issue of poaching is not a valid reason for closing the road either. Poaching occurs in my front yard yearly. We do out best to stem it through vigiliance and proper procedure, but it does occur regardless.

The area is a camp ground but the Forest Service removed the trash recepticles and put up the gate there just below the camp ground because the land owners were using the area for themselves and for friends. In fact, some of the worst poachers there it would seem were the landowners, although two of those persons, the persons who started this whole closure issue, have since sold out and departed this part of the country, leaving others with only rumors and misconceptions of what is really going on in the area.

The road to Hill's Lake is a road that served several pioneer families during the past generations. In fact, there was also a mail route along the road at one time. It still should maintain its status as a prescriptive road and it must go through due process to close it. Due process has not been served and is not recorded in the county or state records.

More to follow...

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

Addressing the issue of a suppossed court case:
There was talk of a law suit to be filed by TU, specifically the chapter out of Rome. But when faced with the possibility of a counter suit, TU backed away from the issue as they did not want to risk losing the substantial assets the chapter holds.

In essence, the landowners succeeded in intimidating TU.

This issue has been brought before the Forestry Commission, which is a federal agency, but they deferred to a local government level.

This afternoon I took this before the Gilmer County Commissioners.

The details of that meeting will be included in another post.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

Addressing the issue of allowing only foot access.

For many, many years the road was open and fishing did not suffer. In fact, persons like my father and uncle are responsible for bringing brown trout to the stream.

Another issue that might arise is access for the handicapped. As this is federal facility, and have no doubt that it is, there are certain guidelines that must be adhered to.

Most people do not know that this was a public road well before the forest service bought so much of the area. The land was inhabited by several families of Southers, Dyers and Ducketts.

There was also a mail route that went up part of the road.

I also have researched that the road runs through both private property and Wildlife Management Area.

The Forest Service is willing to remove the gate at the camp ground if Gilmer County removes the main gate just Gate's Chapel Road. The Forest Service only erected the gate at the camp ground due to abuse of the camp ground by the land owners only allowing thier friends to access federal land there and use it as a private refuge.

More to follow...
Greg

[mb90535im]

...the land owners only allowing thier friends to access federal land there and use it as a private refuge.
Greg

I think that is the true heart of the issue Greg. The local landowners want to restrict access to the area in order to treat it as "their own private refuge". People are so "mine, mine, mine" when it comes to things like this these days, and trout stream owners appear to be some of the worst of the lot. As a youngster I fished all the time in Hill's Lake, and now I suppose one would be arrested if you tried to even wet a line there. How selfish...

Thank you for going before the County Commission and voicing your opinion.

[dblhaul]

in the wma is more disturbing than giving someone grief to others for being on the "closed" road itself..I personally feel that someone deputizing themselves and believeing they can run others off a wma can easily be be remedied with a good ole ***-whoopin..If anything, the commisioners office needs to give quick, clear, and concise ruling on what's what with the road/gate. Also, the trail access should be clearly marked for legal and safe access in and out. Seems that it's time to get everything "clear" on Mountaintown WMA so people can get back to what's important. Fishing.

[GregoryWithrow]

For those who did not follow this issue in the General Postings this post is from yesterday evening:

This evening I stood before the board at a public meeting and raised the issue of the legality of the gate blocking access to Rigg's Road or better known as Hill's Lake Road.

I spoke for about 10 minutes and there were no voices of dissent present or were not vocal. Three other persons also in favor of openg the gate were there to help raise the issue, but I spoke on thier behalf.

Other individuals in the crowd were shocked that the area had been closed as they had all camped there before.

The Gilmer County Commissioners were almost instantly in favor of researching the issue.

For a matter of record, Rigg's Road is an official 911 address and cannot legally be closed.

The Gilmer County Attorney and the Department of Planning and Community Development Director will be researching the issue and present thier findings at the next board of commissioners meeting.

Refering to the fact that this area is federal land under the Forest Service and Wildlife Management Agency the following amusing quote was heard in the the courtroom.

"No one should have the right to close off access to a family member," said one of the commissioners. "If I want to go see my uncle, I should be able to go see my Uncle Sam."

Uncle Sam refers to the federal government which most of us pay taxes to support and the funding that provides for areas like that above Hill's Lake.

If you have any further questions please contact me here, email or telephone.

I would encourage anyone interested in this issue to please contact the Gilmer County Commissioner' Board.

And yes, even if you have a dissenting view, please make your voice heard during this process.

Greg
GregoryWithrow@hotmail.com
706-636-1286

[dblhaul]

There are 2 comissioner "post"..1-is Ken Bailey..2- is Mark Chastain..And the chairman is Jerry Farist..Which is the proper contact? Thanks.

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings,
Any of the commissioners would be a proper contact including the chairman would be a proper point of contact.

I will be meeting with the Director of the Department Development and Community Planning next week in order to research the problem further.

JBLHAUL: What is your position on this issue?

Greg

[riversoque]

Was this property all private and then a few or one landowner sold some to the government? Has the gov't always owned the land? Who paid to put in the original road? Who maintains the road now? I know people who live on a private road, with 911 addreses, that is gated. I think I would have a lot of questions before jumping in on either side of this.

[GregoryWithrow]

Correction:
DBLHAUL: What is your position on this issue?

Greg

[dblhaul]

Correction:
DBLHAUL: What is your position on this issue?

Greg

You may want to read through this thread again..Question, here and totally off the subject..You wouldn't happen to be from California?

[just lloyd]

I appreciate the effort made to clarify this issue. I can assure all those concerned that if I ever have an opportunity to drive into the WMA that I will be picking up any trash I find and reporting any violations that I may witness.
What a delicate situation.

[GregoryWithrow]

The road has existed since pioneer days. The families that lived in that area were the Southers, Dyers and Ducketts to name a few.

The area began to be sold off in the 1940s. The Forestry Commission bought much of the land then and began to log the area. The Hill family bought most of the rest, in particular that below the lake.

The road runs in about half-a-mile on private property, then it runs about a quarter of a mile through the WMA, returns to private property until just above the lake. From Gate's Chapel to the first road that turn right near the first white-block cabin was part of the original mail rout that ran back through the Sluder property on Zion Hill Road.

Temple Hill owns the left side of the road at the gate. Within the last two months he has said that he didn't give anyone permission to put the gate there and did not know how it has remained there so long.

On another note, the status of who maintains the road is mixed. As far as I can tell, where the road turn right to go around the lake to the camp ground has been under very little upkeep, and has been that way all my life.

Several houses are being built there on the right above the lack and minimal work has been done there.

One of the arguments of the landowners was there contribution to the upkeep of the rest of the road. This will certainly be a point of contention, and the county will certainly have to take on some upkeep. This is a hot issue all across the county not just on this road as noted in last night's meeting.

In the end however, the general concensus is that the road is public even as much as many wish to keep it cut off, it is not a subdivision or private community and no permits for such have been purchased.

Greg

[Path_Less_Traveled]

There has been a similar issue at Mt. Yonah... private landowners gated the access road which had been used for decades... now, there is a separate access area... quite a sum of money was raised to buy land to re-establish access... some details can be found here on NGTO by typing in "yonah".

[GregoryWithrow]

Sir,
I have read through this thread, but was just a little confused on your position, since you quoted the Camaro Rule. I just wanted a little bit of clarification as it does seem you might like to have the area open if the proper management was applied, namely patrolling by the DNR.

My background is as follows:
I am native of Gilmer County in more ways than one, including Cherokee ancestry on both sides of my family as well as the typical mix of Scott, Irish and German genes. I am related in some form or fashion to about everyone in this county who is native.

I am 38 years of age and have spent the last 11 of those in the U.S. Army stationed with the 1st Armored Division in Germany. Four of those years I served as a crewmember on an M1A1 Abrams tank and the other seven years I served as a public affairs officer for the division. I returned home 5 March of this year due to a service ending injury.

I have BA in history with a minor in English Literature. I am currently finishing a MA in secondary education and will begin doctoral program in education administration shortly thereafter. I am fluent in German and have a great understanding of Serbo-Croatian.

I live on a farm on Gate's Chapel Road and constantly witness the kinds of abuse that can occur anywhere and are not just reserved to WMA areas. Examples: Trash from the Dairy Queen littered the entire half mile of property we own on Gates Chapel this week. Three does shot and left laying in our pasture last year. Shooting across our pasture in the middle of the night last month. The list could continue, but I think the point is that no area is immune to this sort of thing and by keeping out persons who might havea positive effect on an area merely by being there to discourage illegal activities, we are only enabling others to continue as they wish.

I learned to fish on Souther's Creek and all of its tributaries, taught by my grandfather. And at the time I was fishing with him the road was open and there was a campground there with trash cans and latrine facilities. The forest service removed them after abuse by the local landowners allowing access to the area.

Much of my historcial information on the area comes from my grandfather, deeds, maps and other local old timers. I am in the process clarifying and verifying the road status with county officials.

During my time in Germany, I witnessed the great resposnibility the German fisherman take upon themselves in adopting sections of streams to maintain. I think we might take a lesson from them on this. Although I realize there are programs like this in place in many areas here, there is nothing to say we cannot do the same for the Mountaintown region.

Greg

[dblhaul]

Thanks for the background..Your hired! Just kidding..No matter if we agree or disagree..We can have a laugh..The reason I asked if you were from California, it's a ongoing joke with a friend of mine from San Diego-who was driving by a California courthouse when a white supremicist from the area, named Gregory Withrow, attemped to "crucify" himself on the courthouse steps...Just funny irony.Anyrate, my postion is as it's been. leave the gate ..You had asked for opinion to be voiced either way, so I voiced mine..I e-mailed commissioner Mark Chastain and expressed my point. I personally don't see "new territory" for DNR to patrol as a "positive", when the reality is that they can't be everywhere at once. Anyrate, you have your opinion and thoughts, best of luck and take care.

[GregoryWithrow]

Actually, I have often pointed out the individual you mentioned as the white supremacist. I think it is very funny and have used it to intimidate soldiers into following my orders. Actually, I thought that guy was from somewhere in Kentucky.

Yes, we can disagree and I think it is important to do so in a public forum which is what this democratic republic was founded upon. The arbitrary decisions of a few persons without due process and the opportunity of the people to have a voice in the decision of how thier taxes are spent is something that is dangerous to our nation.

One reason this is so dangerous here is exemplified by what is transpiring now. Did you know that TU had an agreement with two of the landowners there to have access any time they wished, but those two land owners have sold out and left this part of the country. Now, this back-door deal has lefte TU as an organization high and dry, so to speak. One of those land owners worked at Goldkist in Ellijay with one of the past county commissioners. This is why not decision was stated when theis was originally brought up some seven to ten years ago. Can you understand the machinations driving the wheels of this machine?

Actually, I am surprised no one showed up to voice a dissenting opinion yesterday and actually I was disappointed.

However, I hope to meet you DBLHAUL at the campground when it reopens.

Does everyone realize that for years this campground supported one of many deer camps set up in the Gilmer County the Forest Service and Game & Fish?

We are not only addressing people who fish here, but persons who hunt deer, turkey, bear, wild swine as well as persons who might just want to camp there or cookout at the campground. Everyone who has fished the area must know that the real fishing does not transpire at the campground. And bicyclists are not really a distraction to people fishing the gorge through there or any of the of the tributaries feeding it. In any case, bicyclists are still utilizing the trail as well as horseback riders who I saw on the road there today.

I visited the area today, as I am a person who does have access to the area.
What many of you do not realize is that there is a lot of constructin going on in the area. Three new houses are about to be built within half-a-mile of the camp ground. And it seems a subdivision/housing development is going to be underway shortly in the area that is just behind Gates Chapel Church and runs almost up against the the right side of the road and definetly up against the mail route that once ran all the way to Zion Hill.

I ask you this, are you will as a tax payer, to allow persons who have a couple of acres to commandier this area of public land and use it as there own private refuge?

I say to you that this is not the King's land or some nobleman's who is trying to keep Robin Hood from poaching. We left at all that behind when we left Europe and built a land founded upon the will of the people.

As far as the DNR, the area was open at one time and was patrolled by game wardens such as my great uncle, who has long since retired. In fact, I recall that on one of my first trips into the area as a child, we met with a game warden on patrol in the area.

As far as the local officials at this time, the recently departed game warden sent an email to the Gilmer County Commissioners in favor of removing the gate. The person who assumed the duties of the outgoing individual is also in favor of removing the gate, but was unable to attend the meeting yesterday due to a previous committment.

The number one complaint Fish & Game has in this area is this issue. People want to access the area. And I believe, from what I have learned, those people are in the extreme majority.

Greg

[The Ole Man]

Hello Cuzin Greg----well maybe ?? My great-great grand-parents Mr & Mrs Martin Long are listed in the Gilmer County Census of 1850 (Family No. 251). Is that Native enough ?? :) My cousin (deceased) Tony Wayne Pinson used to be the Gilmer County Tax Commisioner. Thanks for taking on this project. The gate should go.

[Path_Less_Traveled]

... gate or no gate, here's something you can do.
http://67.191.188.190/gatu/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=67&year=2006&month=09&day=30&Itemid=30

[The Ole Man]

PLT--tnx for the link. I urge everyone to go. Greg Smith and I went to one of these at Mtn Town 2 years ago. USFS did some electro-shocking in addition to the structure work that was done. You will be surprised at what the creek holds.

[markland]

No disrespect intended Greg and I want to personally thank you for your service. Now back to Town Creek! Poaching is a problem and even more so in areas that are not visible or accesible easily. This area is prime for that since it is so far back in and many other undesirable things are going on in there as well. There is no possible, physical way for our DNR to effectively patrol this area, you should know that since you live in the area and have had enough problems with situations occuring on the main road. Opening the gates will only contribute and continue to build is this area as well as the ongoing destruction of the area and it's natural environment. Do you really want to see this area just wide open with constant access and traffic in there, might as well go fish behind the Dairy Queen downtown! Limited access is what keeps these areas wild and more natural, not everybody wants to go where everyone else is already at and there are fewer and fewer areas that are as scenic and rewarding to visit. And this is getting harder to find mainly due to public access. Not everybody that goes in there is fishing or hunting or hiking, and that is the problem. The area is not closed off or inaccessible, just a little harder to get to with the access road closed. It does not take long to hike in from Bear Creek and it is a beautiful walk anyway. Plus the area does have some wildlife in it, as long as there are not groups of people camping and carrying on in the middle of the woods. Atv access thru the gated off areas around the "campground" is a big problem and opening the gates will only increase this even more. Normally I would not find myself in a situation where I would agree with the landowners over an access issue, but this time I do, for all the logical reasons. Mark

[Reel'em In]

markland...

Poaching is a problem and even more so in areas that are not visible or accesible easily. This area is prime for that since it is so far back in and many other undesirable things are going on in there as well. What are the many other undesirable things that are going on in there?

Atv access thru the gated off areas around the "campground" is a big problem and opening the gates will only increase this even more.
Do you know how the ATV's are getting up to the campground area? Would it perhaps be some of the landowners? Just asking.

[markland]

Partying, trail riding, shooting, drug use, even some dumping have been observed in there, not to mention the amount of trash and other stuff that is left behind. Much of the ATV abuse can be attributed to some landowners, but not all of it. There is alot of ATV use on the management areas as a whole, but isolated trails get hammered hard. I have talked with DNR and they are trying to catch the people running their ATV's up there, but so far have not been able to get them. There is way too much land for the local DNR to watch and keep an eye on and this spot in particular, since it is so isolated, requires too much time and effort to drive in and check up on so many things go unnoticed. Mark

[mb90535im]

There is way too much land for the local DNR to watch and keep an eye on and this spot in particular, since it is so isolated, requires too much time and effort to drive in and check up on so many things go unnoticed. Mark

Mark, That statement describes 75% of the Cherokee National Forrest. This spot we're talking about is no more isolated than 100's of others across North Georgia. Based on that argument all national forest roads should be gated at pavement's end. I believe Greg hit the nail on the head with this particular issue when he suggested that local landowners wish to restrict access to themselves and a few of their select friends and TU members, allowing the area to serve as their own private fish and game preserve.

[likeitinthewoods]

The Facts about Riggs Road

As a property owner in this area it seems now might be a good time to apologize to all of you…. meaning I am sorry up until now you have not been told the real story.

So if your reaction before was negative to the gate it was possibly out of not having good solid facts to base your reaction on. If after getting these facts you still do not favor the gate, well again I am sorry but please understand there are other ways into this area, no one has said you cannot get to this area, we are happy for those who enjoy this area of the WMA and those who are willing to put forth the effort to get there because you will find it clean, peaceful and well worth the trip.

May 22nd 1997 the property owners at Riggs Road went before the Gilmer County Commissioner’s and asked for clarification to insure the County was not going to take a position they had an interest in the private road then known as Hills Lake Road. The Gilmer County Commissioners clearly stated that they not only have no interest in this road, but how could they “Abandon” a road they never had an interest in the first place. This is in the minutes from the meeting held on 5-22-1997

The landowners went before the commissioners to insure they were doing the right thing and that gating their private road would not later cause an issue. The reason they wanted to gate their private road was to be able to run power back to their cabins, and to try to keep the road in passable condition for their vehicles which up until now had been impossible for them.

This private road was consistently being used by anyone who felt they had a reason to go through it and the landowners were the ONLY ones doing maintenance on the road. At times only a pack mule could get back there, trash and other signs of misuse were everywhere.

The power company refused to run power on any road which could not be kept maintained. The County, the Forest Service and certainly not the public at large ever helped maintain the road.

This private road which has never appeared on any public road map was locked due to these above factors.

This whole scenario now being talked about is akin to someone telling you because at one time they cut through your land to get to town without your permission you have no right to ask them at any point to stop, or to put up a barrier to stop them if they refuse. Or maybe even more applicable to this case let’s say after 9 years a claim is made to use your land again to get to town because at one time in the past they did so without your permission.

The road ends at a WMA which in actuality is easier accessed through a trail at Bear Creek Camp Ground rather than walking in from Riggs Road.

One would have to ask why now after over 9 years of silence why would anyone try to “Fix” something that isn’t broke?

I like the two comments made previously…
“Anything worth doing is worth a little effort” and “Be careful what you ask for”

This is a very fragile environment back there and let's not get our hairs up without looking at the reality of the situation.

Thanks for giving this some thought.

Like It in the Woods

[GregoryWithrow]

First off...

I find it amazing that individuals concerned about this issue cannot use real names, even though I do know the persons behind some of the aliases used herein. I do respect a person's right ot anonymty, but I think the time has come for such guise to be shed.

There is a famous quote about the lack of patriots at the outset of revolution, but once they find acceptance, the fill the ranks willingingly. I am not sure sure who used the paraphrased verbage and I do not have time to research it, but I do have time to act upon it.

In any instance, there has has been no proper procedure followed to close this road. This is a matter I am willing to follow all the way to the Supreme Court.

If you contend that the May 22, 1997, statement by the Gilmer County Commissioners is legal, I defy this based on the laws that afford a closure of sure a road. No such procedures were followed, and if the county upholds such a decision, a lawsuit contesting this will follow. Just because it is take before the commissioners does not mandate legality.

Lett me say this, if the persons wishing to have this road closed truly believed int he validity of thier cause, a certain prominent individual, a Mr. Kurt Rapp, would not have asked someone to stop by my grandfather's house some two months ago to ask what could be done to smooth this issue over.

I am calling this person out. I am calling out Mr. Kurt Rapp and any others who wish to express discord with my opinion.

If you contest this statement, please contact me. I want this to be on the public record if my information is incorrect. Yet, I was there when this person came to my grandfather's house, and I recall it all quite clearly.

I am calling out every person by name to stand on thier side of the fence of this issue.

As of of yet only two persons have even contacted me regarding this issue. Both parties were in favor of having the gate opened.

The road has been consistantly used for public travel for about 100 years or mayboe longer. Persons who travelled this road can be mobilized easily and some are already aware of the situation.

Greg Withrow
706 636 1286
gregorywithrow@hotmail.com

[xjd33x]

Hello all, I've been lurking in the shadows and reading this foeum for awhile, with no intention of joining until reading this thread. You see, I too am a native of Gilmer county who grew up fishing those streams. Heck I even caught my first trout near the campground. I was saddened when the gate was closed years ago, but considering my heritage have been lucky enough to have fairly regular access. Even so, I support Mr. Witherow's attempt at reopening the area.
You see, my grandfather lived in a little white farmhouse across Gate's Chapel road from said gate. He also helped stock trout in those creeks when there was none. He used to take me fishing, and sometimes camping up in that area as well as hunting. I would like to continue a tradition that started long before me by taking my son up there camping as well. Mr. Witherow, I am the oldest grandson of the late Arvil Wilson whom I believe was a close friend of your father's and aunt's. If I can help in any way, feel free to PM me or email me. Thank you and best wishes.

[GregoryWithrow]

The Dude,
Let us not resort to name calling and the hurling of insults. I believe that detracts from the issue at hand and wastes our time.

Although, I did enjoy the quip about you actually being Elvis.

There are no threats contained in this forum. And I am not an individual who considers threats effective.

I think we are all misinformed and the further I dig into the history of the region the clearer it becomes that no party has all the facts. That is the heart of this issue. What are the facts?

On the issue of the road, most people do not realize that the road ran all the way to Jack's River and there were many bridges and fords across the creek.

As for the road being on maps, it is marked on older maps. One of the suppporting issues is that status of the road. It is not a county road, but a public road and the county does not maintain all public roads.

I have a document that discussed roads and closure that I will post here shortly.

Greg

[skibum]

Dude, That was just LAME.. Prove your not as LAME as everyone on here now thinks you are.. I have a feeling your welcome just dropped a notch or two around here... Attacking someone like that after 9 posts?? And your how old?? Act your age DUDE...

[Gillseeker]

I call on Aaron to drop the "Dude"

[GregLS]

I've hiked into Mountiantown a few times and have helped out on a few work days with the last a few years ago. It is a beautiful place. I met Mr Riggs Rottweiler 'Rosie" once when hiking back out and lucky for the both of us she was a lot more bark than bite. :p

The Good of The Gate! The gate was a blessing to keep the "Camaro" crowd away. It let the area heal from past transgresions. It let the wildlife recover and return. So in that note the gate has been very good to the resource and the somewhat 'pristine' look return.

The Bad of The Gate! "Resource" is the key word here. It is a 'public' resource and it keeps the public from easy access to said resource and the public pays the bills to maintain the resource (WMA). It also allows exclusivity of the land owners behind the gate to use a public resource for their own personal use. It makes for difficult acces to DNR/Law enforcement to provide their services to the area and allows illegal ATV use and others to grow because these law services are locked out.

Hills Lake or Riggs Rd. Seems Hills Lake road was on many maps thru the years as I'm sure it's on an old Cohutta Wilderness Area map I have at home. IT is discussed in Jimmy Jacobs book "Trout Fishing in North Georgia where he provides a MAP including the road.


I'm all for maintaining the resource but I know the road was open for decades before the gate was ever erected.

There was talk of a trail being cut/blazed from Bear Creek Campground by the Forrest Service. What ever become of that idea? Seems this idea was a real smart thing as it was the most direct route to give the public the access it deserves to it's 'resource.

Greg W. please keeps us up-to-date on let us know if and how we should be involved in getting acces to this area.

Greg Smith

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings,

GregLS and anyone else interested should email the Gilmer County Commissioners at this point. I do not have thier addresses handy or I would post them here.

Also, if you have copies of old maps showing the road and the camp ground marked as such, I would like to have them via email if possible.

Mr. Kurt Rapp, one of the most influential landowners there wishes the gate to remain closed. He was out of the country recently but called back and scheduled a meeting with Jerry Farrist, the chairman of the commissioners. I would suggest emailing him with your comments. If you do email him, can you please CC me on the email so I can maintain a record as the commissioners want all emails and posts from this site to help them examine the issue.

I spoke with one of the commissioners today and he had contacted the local Ranger Tina Tilley. She expressed that the Forest Service wishes to have the road open and would remove the second gate located at the camp ground if the gate on Gate's Chapel was removed.

I will will be getting an update from the commissioners later this week.

Some people do not realize that the lake and the dam have a federal easement. Legally, there shouldbe no gate there because of federal regulations that require immediate access to flood control dams at any time.

Inspectors tried to get to the dam recently but could not without walking two miles. They were not happy. Here we are talking about issues on the level of FEMA.

On August 10th, there will be another commissioner's meeting open to the public at the Gilmer County Court House. I urge you all to attend.

As for the proposal to have another road cute from Bear Creek, the issue was just too costly.

Greg

[fancyballwhiskey]

I've don't have the time or inclination to read this entire thread but it seems to me that weather you may like it or not ithe question is weather the road a public or a private road. If it's a private road that you are s--- out of luck. If it is a public road then the issue should be fairly easy. If it is a private road and you don't like it then you probably are going to be sol.

I too have a military backgroud and would never think to mention it as a tool in an open forum. I'm proud of the serivce I provided and there it remains!

[fancyballwhiskey]

I forgot to mention - do ou want to call me out?

[GregLS]

Just got home...

Looked thru my collection (only 4-5 7.5 Minute Series) of topgraphic maps of the region. Hills Lake Road appears on the 1988 Dyers Gap Quadrangle smack dab in the middle of the map!

Here ya go, this is from USAPhotoMaps which uses the USGS Topo ...

http://webmail.taylormathis.com/~tmguest/HillsLktopo.jpg

[GregLS]

As I know this issue is very personal to many people, you may feel the need to strike out by 'flaming' another member of this board.

DO NOT USE THIS FORUM FOR THAT PURPOSE.

Any Flame will be removed and the poster Will get a warning with subsequent flames leading to your 'Bannishment".

So Let's keep the topic civil here on this public forum and work toward a common resolution, one that may not bring down the gate but that does give the public access it rightly deserves to its resource. :)

[GregoryWithrow]

Why would the Forest Service put a camp ground at the end of a private road?

The area is even posted with signs saying no motorized vehicles beyond this point.

Greg

[fancyballwhiskey]

I just started here and don't want to get "banished". What is being complained about when you come down to it is the age old agruement about who owns the water/land. It is muddle up by the private vas public issue of land ownership. This aruement has gone one from floida to Montana. Read Georgia law. Fortunately or unforturnataly prople who own proptery property can change what was prevously allowed. Nobody likes in when we can't go were we are use to going. They own it now and can who dicide who can go there. I may not like it and you abvously don't.
Take it to the Supreme Court - in todays day and thinking you probabably will win.

[the dude]

Ski Bum-
You are right. I lost my cool. Apologies to the group. The Dude

[fancyballwhiskey]

Greg.
aboslutely noting personaal. Appreciated the phone conn. If we talked better there would be alott of 155mm rounds legt. God luck with your fight>

[Path_Less_Traveled]

As i've said before... i'm in favor of keeping the gate closed... but it's really self-serving opinion because i want to hike in there and catch some nice fish in a low pressured wild stream.

BUT... i also see the other side of the issue... what if every group of people who own land bordering a public road accessing the Chattahoochee forest did the same thing as these Hills Lake people?... they sure did it at Yonah Mtn :eek: ... ok... think... what's your favorite public stream?... and what if some private landowners blocked off the only reasonable access to that stream?... sure, some of us can hike around the private holding without ever getting on private land... but some of us cannot.

Maybe the solution is to un-gate the road... but make sure it is gated it a little further up... that would allow access.... and also protect most of the stream.

[fancyballwhiskey]

I'm not sure who your quipt was meant for. If it was for myself then I have called Greg and we have discussed issued. We may or may not be in full agreement, but he and I are antitliled to our opion. You may not like it but you have allowd this thread to go on for far too long. It is a no win issure.

The qustion should be (as it is throught the US) weather or not people haven access to steams and how far the rights of owners goes.

[skibum]

No Problem Dude, I understand...

And Fancy, I'm no english lit major or anything, but dude ( no offense to The Dude...lol), you gotta proof read your posts... Can hardly understand what it is your saying with so many missing letters and words... There's also an edit button where most of us see the error's we've made and go back to correct them.. Read your posts, you'll see what i mean ;)

I dont really have a dog in this fight, but i do admire Greg for the way he is taking this thru the proper channels... Sure opening up the gate may cause some troubles, but i think they can be worked out in some form or fashion..

[The Ole Man]

Seems pretty simple on the surface. When it comes to land, you own what a recorded deed says you (or your legal heirs) own. If Hills lake Rd land owners have deeds and plats showing they own the land the road sits on then it's private. If they have no deed to the land the road sits on---they don't own it. If they don't own it, then they can't just take it--or go ask the Commission if its "ok"---yeah, thanks a lot--see ya later. A transfer such as this requires due process, public hearings and a legally recorded transfer.

[fancyballwhiskey]

I lost my glasses the other day and can't even read what I am posting, Being a disisdent had been hard.

[fancyballwhiskey]

Ski Bumb - I apolgize for the typing. I have been with no eyes for the last 5 days. Wife think's it is funney. I'm gonna killer her.

[skibum]

Ok but dont use a gun, were all afraid what you might really hit :nervs:

[fancyballwhiskey]

I killeed her days ago. I'm going to plead post partum sysdrom.

[fancyballwhiskey]

Greg,
Enjoeyd taking to you. Keep your mission.

Mike

[The Ole Man]

Hmmmm--Greg, I think I need to borrow whiskeymikes glasses to read that.

[GregoryWithrow]

Can any of you guys read that? If you print it out you might have better luck.

I am sure WhiskeyMike will be having his wife read it to him. :)

Greg

[Milton]

Can any of you guys read that? If you print it out you might have better luck.


I can read it, and I can also identify with it.

There’s a six foot wide strip along one end of the lot my house sits on, that’s part of an alley that gives several neighbors vehicle access to their back yards. It’s also used by BellSouth to access phone lines that run back there. This is a legal easement, established long ago by customary use. Even though my land extends halfway across the alley, if my neighbor on the other side and I wanted to gate the alley and return it to private use, we could not legally do so. I wouldn’t be surprised if the legalities of the Riggs Road situation are comparable to this.

While I’m at it, PLT mentions the pleasures of a low-pressure, wild stream, and of course I agree with that. But for what it’s worth, the one time I fished Mountaintown, in the mid-nineties before the road was gated, I didn’t see another soul or another vehicle there all day. I don’t know what the Camaro crowd did there on a Saturday night, but as far as I could tell, for fishing purposes it was a low-pressure, wild stream.

Another small point while I’m still at it: Likesitinthewoods mentions “nine years of silence” on this subject. It’s understandable that he’s unaware of it, but this situation has come up regularly on this board and elsewhere throughout the time the road has been gated, and has never been settled to anyone’s satisfaction. Thanks to him and Mr. Withrow and others, more facts seem to be getting injected into the discussion than usual, which I’m glad to see.

I was also going to mention the map issue, but I see that others have taken it up.

Something that I’d really like to see, per The Ole Man’s post, would be for someone to pull the deeds. That might just clear it up then and there.



-Milton

[Curt Rapp]

Calling Me Out….

So is this a gun fight at the OK coral?

I honestly felt it best if I stayed out of this, with the thought it might calm down, but since I have been “Called out” and my name and travel details seem to be a topic for posting, it might be best I post only this ONE reply so everyone knows my stance and some facts I think are relevant.

Let’s see, how shall I begin?

Greg Withrow called me one Saturday morning demanding a key after starting the conversation making sure I knew he had served 12 years in the military, I very politely said I had no ability to give him a key, there are many landowners and we don’t give out keys, but I suggested that if he knew a landowner who would give him access he could get in that way, or he was welcome to hike in one of the many trails that lead in as many others currently do.

Kenneth Withrow (the Grandfather) called me about two Saturdays later and again he demanded a key, I tried the same tactful approach until he made reference to tearing down the gate and also indicating he knew I just built a new house back there and made me feel real uneasy and unsure of what his intentions were. I told Kenneth as politely as anyone would who had felt like his property and or life was just threatened, that “I didn’t like the way this was going and I was done with this conversation” but he went on and it was clear to me he wanted to pick a fight.

First of all, I don’t agree with using military service as an angle, I respect any person who has served our country as much as the next person, as a matter of fact my Grandfathers served in WWII and my son is currently in the US Army’s 1st Cavalry. But that doesn’t make my need for access to another’s property greater, nor my opinion any more valid than any one else’s. Enough said on that.

Let’s go through the comments made one at a time,

Many things said in this thread have been blatant misstatements, some are possibly due to being misinformed, and others are meant to be purposely misleading, but all are meant to rile up the public at large over an issue regarding the public’s right to public and private land.

I respect anyone’s right to express their opinion but not to mislead people to push their agenda forward.

I never asked anyone to go by and speak to Kenneth Withrow as Greg has stated. After getting what I felt as a very threatening call from his grandfather I did make some inquiries as to who this man is.
-When I asked one man, “Is he a good guy?” this person said to me, “I guess there is some good in everyone, somewhere”.
-Another said "Oh S***, you got trouble".
-But another person I inquired with, without me knowing in advance took it upon himself to go by and contact Kenneth at his home to try to reason through this. Even though this person doesn’t own property in the area any longer (Greg’s statement about him having tracts for sale is not true) he tried to help, but how is this good citizen paid back for trying to help calm things down? This is the same person who Greg refers to as a landowner and poacher in this thread.
This man doesn’t deserve that treatment and in my opinion Greg should apologize for his remark.
The Re Max Agent Greg mentions should also make a statement about that remark.

Greg says Temple Hill was not in favor of the gate, When I spoke to Temple Hill recently not only was he in favor of the gate he commented how bad it would become if the gate was removed.

The map posted is a TOPO map, not a map of Public Roads; this was never a public road.

The local property owners are being made out as the ones who are using their ATV’s to abuse the land, WRONG AGAIN! The end of the road has a gate and a series of posts in the ground to stop vehicles, one of these posts was torn down by and ATV rider who used to ride around our gate. I reported this to the DNR and we placed two posts at our gate to impede those who wish to just ride around our gate and do as they please in this restricted area.
The local DNR officer has detained people for this type activity in the past and we are always cooperating with them in this regard.

Law Enforcement is not locked out, they all have keys and this gate can only make their job easier.

Greg said the following,
“Inspectors tried to get to the dam recently but could not without walking two miles. They were not happy. Here we are talking about issues on the level of FEMA”
-The truth is the USDA Environmental inspector who inspects the dam once a year contacted me and asked for access, I set up someone to let him in, he showed up on a day he had not planned to and walked in on his own volition, he told me he had no issue with that.

If Prescriptive rights were applicable to this road (They are not) many thanks to Greg for posting this because he just made our case for us, read it carefully all of the steps were followed, it was legal and still is.

Look everyone calmer heads should prevail here, I love it up here like the rest of you do, and I have owned in the area since 1999. I am not a local born in Gilmer County, but I also am not a person who just bought up here recently and am trying to lock out the locals and those who have in the past and still want to continue to enjoy the great things this area has to offer. We all have rights, but these rights do not include not destroying other people’s property and threatening owners because you cannot get the right to drive to your fishing hole.

I know there are stories of past owners who ran people out, give them some slack because frankly it’s hard to know who has good intentions, we have been robbed, vandalized, poached, littered and harassed only because we needed to secure our property, run power to our cabins and keep the road passable. And yes as a by product this area is now more remote due to walk in only access, but the resources are benefiting from this. It is worth the short walk now but it wasn’t worth it before I have been told.

Because of all the past trouble I had to purchase a security system with camera’s that record and post on the internet for review when any person accesses my property, yes it has come to that!

Let’s all settle down, bottom line is you can access this WMA, no one has their own private game reserve by virtue of the gate. What we do have is a well managed and maintained property for enjoyment of all who are willing to put forth a small amount of effort.

Greg, I respect your right to free speech and to get to the truth, but in my opinion the tactics used are wrong, let’s move forward in a positive, well informed and truthful manner from now on.

Thanks,

Curt Rapp

[dblhaul]

I can say that Mountaintown WMA has been taken off my list of places to fish..You "patriots" can have it..Too much water over in those beautiful mountains to fish and not to have to squabble..Greg, I was begining to re-think my position on this matter-early into this thread, make sure that I was looking at this situation in a fair and just manner. Your last few e-mails sealed the deal for me. In the begining, you seemed passionate about your position. Now your leaning more towards unstable and creepy. I think I'll take my good knees and find some solitude.. In the future,I would be careful who I "called" out..You just may have to "answer" them on the water one day..Bart Burgess, President-Sipsey Tailrace Chapter of Trout Unlimited

[skibum]

Thanks for stopping in Curt. It's always nice to hear the other side of the story... Very interesting reading...

[skibum]

Seems pretty simple on the surface. When it comes to land, you own what a recorded deed says you (or your legal heirs) own. If Hills lake Rd land owners have deeds and plats showing they own the land the road sits on then it's private. If they have no deed to the land the road sits on---they don't own it. If they don't own it, then they can't just take it--or go ask the Commission if its "ok"---yeah, thanks a lot--see ya later. A transfer such as this requires due process, public hearings and a legally recorded transfer.


Curt I do have a question about this post above.. How does this come into play, or does it??

[Dances with Deer]

As a Native of the area I am very familiar with this WMA and all the properties and owners mentioned. I agree with Curt Rapp and DBL Haul. Now, it seems, common sense is prevailing. If any of the Withrows are truly concerned about the peoples' access to fishing, then they would open up their property at the waterfall by the old mill. There is some of the best trout fishing in Georgia and the Withrows control access to it yet do not let anyone else fish there. My children and I hike to and through the Hills Lake area regularly. I have never had any problems with land owners there. However, the Withrows are not new to legal action and controversy. It also appears that they feel as if they are above the law. For more information about the Withrows, please "Google" Kenneth Withrow, Gregory Withrow's grandfather. It is an interesting read. DWD

[Curt Rapp]

The Landowners own the road and the land. The contention although not valid is "Prescriptive Rights", the legal opinion is this cannot apply.

And Yes "Dances With Deer" (Cute name!, do I know you?) you are correct, I am not good at recalling famous quotes but something to the effect about "being careful if you live in a glass house"

Curt Rapp

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings Mr. Rapp,

I and sorry for mispelling you first name in earlier posts. I am glad that you have taken the time to read through this forum.

As for calling you out to this public forum, I am glad you have answered and had thought that you might respond somewhat sooner. There are not many corals of that type in North Georgia, mainly pastures and barns. Even the dusty main streets have all vbut disappeared. :)

As I have stated earlier, I wish that everyone could have a clear cut opinion on this issue and not ride the fence in order not to offend someone.

Reference to military service was to provide information as to why I had never raised the issue before and to allow others to examine why they had not been aware of or protested before. Maybe there are others unable to respond due to such circumstances.

My need for access to the area is no more or no less important than anyone else's. The equality of access for taxpayers and thier children is what is of most import.

As for threatening language, I think this is all a matter of perception and you are correct about proceding in a positive manner. I do not want to get bogged down in he said/she said rhetoric. Threats and characterizations are not what this issue is about and only serve to detract from our efforts at clarification.

The main point of contention I have is that the road was of prescriptive status and that proper procedure to close the road was not followed by county officials. There are many roads throughout Gilmer County that were of prescriptive status and many have fallen into disuse. However, this road was a public road that never fell into disuse.

If it is as suggested that the road was not considered prescriptive road, and it is as suggested that procedure was followed in closing the road, then why would the county have followed such a procedure? Do you see the falacy in the argument?

Yes, the issue was brought before the county commissioners, but they did not make a decision according to the minutes and there was not posting of a public announcement and a provision for contesting the issue in a public forum.

Del Land, then a county commissioner said "The county has not legal interest whatsoever on Hill's Lake Road. We are mute on the subject. I contend that this is not a decision, but rather and avoidance of the issue.

Proper proceudre was not followed. Typically, this would involve an announcement in the local paper over several weeks and an open forum inviting anyone and everyone to voice thier opinions. Reviewing the record, this never happened.

At this point the county attorney is looking into the issue and we can only aid in the decision by providing any cogent evidence supporting both view points.

Any further comments are invited.

Greg

706 636-1286
gregorywithrow@hotmail.com

[Gillseeker]

After reading this I would like to try fishing up there. Any place with this much fighting has to have some great fishing.

Is there public access to this place? If so, where is it?

Dan

[GregoryWithrow]

I wish there were fish in that creek, but since the Zion Hill flood control dam has changed the temperature in the water, there is only bream and red eye in that section of the creek.

Greg

[GregLS]

Every story has three sides. Yours,theirs and the truth.

I do find it an interesting point that Curt Rapp and DWD were born a day apart :rolleyes:

As the Ole Man stated above, legal ownership of said road would be on the property owners deed. Greg if you find the time take a ride to the tax office there and see if you can look over the plate books to see who's, if any, deed shows ownership to the road. I believe that would answer the question.

Can some one give an account of when the gate was installed, torn down, then re-installed over the years?

This has been an enlightening thread! Keep it comming but keep it open and civil.

[dblhaul]

Public access is where it's always been..Bear Creek Campground..Or you can walk around the gate and ask the guy in the first cabin on the left if he will unlock the gate..Nice guy, usually there on the weekends..The trail, is easy to find, and a easy, beautiful walk..As far as the fishing..VERY small wild fish, skinny water..The spring run section that teriminates into Hill Lake holds some nice lake brood..However, to fish this section with reward, you need to be ultra-stealth,use long, fine leaders have delicate presentation..Catch one fish and the others haul..You sit back in the grass and wait for them to re-group..Make sure your very careful close to the lake, the ground is boggy and will suck you in to your armpits..Honestly..

[Labrador]

I'm with you. When do you want to get together and head up there. Must be a GEM! I am willing to walk to (what are they saying... two miles).

[mb90535im]

Public access is where it's always been..Bear Creek Campground..Or you can walk around the gate and ask the guy in the first cabin on the left if he will unlock the gate..Nice guy, usually there on the weekends..The trail, is easy to find, and a easy, beautiful walk..As far as the fishing..VERY small wild fish, skinny water..The spring run section that teriminates into Hill Lake holds some nice lake brood..However, to fish this section with reward, you need to be ultra-stealth,use long, fine leaders have delicate presentation..Catch one fish and the others haul..You sit back in the grass and wait for them to re-group..Make sure your very careful close to the lake, the ground is boggy and will suck you in to your armpits..Honestly..

It's been many, many years since I have hiked up the trail from the Bear Creek/Mountain Town confluence camp ground. At that time the trail terminated at a cabin/house at the base of the dam. Has the trail been extended to where it now connects to the creek upstream of the lake, or do you still have to pass though private property to go that route?

Also, "very small wild fish" doesn't describe all the fish in the stream. Wild maybe, but all of them aren't "very small".

[skibum]

The Landowners own the road and the land. The contention although not valid is "Prescriptive Rights", the legal opinion is this cannot apply.

And Yes "Dances With Deer" (Cute name!, do I know you?) you are correct, I am not good at recalling famous quotes but something to the effect about "being careful if you live in a glass house"

Curt Rapp

The landowners own the land.. :rolleyes: Your kidding right?? So how many people live behind this gate?? Who's to say one owner does'nt want the other owner passing thru on his property.. I ask for a response to the deed question, instead i get landowners own land...lol

This is gettng better than Jerry Springer...


I'm outta this soap!!!!

[Dances with Deer]

Mr. Rapp, where will we have our birthday party? :) DWD

[The Ole Man]

Nothing like a good Gilmer County land feud to get the juices flowing.

[Labrador]

Seems like this "small wild creek" with nothing living in it, might be the real deal, and if not, I think (from all this reading) there's a dairy queen nearby. Thanks guys for letting everyone know about this GEM. When are we going?

[GregoryWithrow]

I am not sure where past legal issues on any person's part have to do with this issue. And I would certainly not be bringing this through legal channels if such issues had any bearing on this.

The plain truth is that if such legal issues had to do with me then I would certainly be of ilrepute and unemployable without much hope whatsoever. :)
Are we all responsible for the mistakes of our forefathers?

As for the establishment of prescriptive road status, my understanding form the document is that land the road is located upon is not public, but the public maintains a right to access the road but may not impede upon the property of the land owners.

The document states that at least 20 years of public use establish the status as a prescriptive road. The roads use by the public certainly exceeds that by decades.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

I will be going to check the deeds, but I really do not believe that they will have any bearing on the issue due to what is contained in the document I posted on prescriptive roads.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

Caught in the main creek above the lake and above Dyer Creek.

I had to take down the post with the document on prescriptive roads in order to get this up, but I can provide a copy to anyone via email.

Greg

[dblhaul]

It's been many, many years since I have hiked up the trail from the Bear Creek/Mountain Town confluence camp ground. At that time the trail terminated at a cabin/house at the base of the dam. Has the trail been extended to where it now connects to the creek upstream of the lake, or do you still have to pass though private property to go that route?

Also, "very small wild fish" doesn't describe all the fish in the stream. Wild maybe, but all of them aren't "very small".

the stream..Ok..The upper section is small, shocking surveys in the past have revealed some fish over 20"..I wasn't there for the surveys..The fish I have caught on the upper section have been around 10"-max..I've caught some of the lake run that have been around 16-18" and seen some over 20"..I try and give people reliable information on what to expect along the lines of what I have experienced..

[chuckwagon]

What a Joke! The Landowner and Dirt road owner has the right to Grant or Reject admission. Period!!

And all this to ruin an already fragile stream.

Please take care of here if you plan on visiting. :(

Trey

[nuggetlegs]

I am going to have to agree with dblhaul on this one. If you want access just hike in via the Bear Creek trail or from the road on top of the mountain. It wont kill you to hike.

The one time we went via the road we just popped open the box and short circuited the gate and it opened right up. Once we arrived at the parking area above the lake there was trash and a couple campsites so I dont know how much opening the road up could really effect the area. The easily accessible areas with trout in Georgia get hit pretty hard and trashed up pretty quickly. If we want anything to be done about it the DOW is going to have to get a lot more funding or we could have volunteers that go around giving warnings and writing tickets.

[Curt Rapp]

I know I said I was going to only post one reply to give you my side. I then felt compelled to answer a question and then the thread "leader" responded without addressing the untruths he has spread.

So here goes....
Guys don't hang on every single word, the landowners do own the road, it's deeded, and it’s not in question. If I didn't answer your question exactly as you have thought I should have, I am SORRY!
The bottom line is we do control who comes in our road, that's just how it is, I mean no offense by this. Please read this thread carefully and see the facts before you fire off about my statements.

Greg Withrow, the forefathers you say you cannot be held responsible for are the same ones you spoke so reverently of previously to help make your case, you cannot have it both ways. Please answer my questions and take a position on your previous statements, this thread is getting so long I guess you think the real facts will get buried?


To TU and other fishing lovers, read on.....

Some History,
I grew up with a bamboo fly rod in my hand, at 8 years of age my grandfather wouldn't let me touch a stream with a fly rod until I could cast without "Buggy Whipping" the line and hit a 3' circle at 40', I loved that man!
I unfortunately got turned off to fly fishing later in life because the sport became one that the (as we called them) “Yuppies” adopted and I became to view it as a me too sport. A lot has happened since then, my grandfather died and left a huge hole in my life. I only asked for the fly rods I learned to fish with from his estate and they hang in my bedroom today, yes my bedroom!

Anyway some of the landowners have spoken in the recent past (Before all of this came about) of hosting a few days a year were we invite the TU and others who love the sport to come in and fish.
Again do not take anything I say out of context, this has nothing to do with what is going on with Greg Withrow, but as I read these threads we didn't realize so many people have never been here, and would probably enjoy it. I am personally interested in taking up the sport again and want to learn from some seasoned pros. We would like to see how many would be willing to set a date, come by, we will host lunch and a day of fishing for 10-15 quality individuals who share our love for this area. You can access this area any time via trails but we would want to make an event out of it, maybe TU can help us organize it as an anual event?

Send me Private messages and we will contact you, I do not want to make a circus out of this, my offer is very sincere.

dblhaul, that was me who was the first cabin on the left, I sold it few years ago and the people there now are just as nice! We would love to show you around!

Curt Rapp

[GregoryWithrow]

Mr. Rapp,

Please check post #49 regarding poaching comments.

Greg

[Path_Less_Traveled]

Meanwhile... everybody and their brother, second cousin, friends second cousin, and their friends second cousin's grandfather are gonna go pound Mtntown :eek: ... lol (just trying to lighten up the thread a little :) ).

[GregoryWithrow]

According to Walter Duckett, Temple Hill told him recently that he did not approve of the gate being there on his property. So now we have more he said/she said.

Greg

[riversoque]

Has it been considered that some property owners in the past gave people permission to use the "common lane"? Now, that permission is no longer granted. I had a situation where I had given permission to a family to cross my property. After a while people just assumed they could cross it too. Litter became a problem along with some other issues, liability, so I had to stop everyone from using the property. Somehow I was the bad guy for taking back controol of my property and reducing my liability and time to maintain the property.

Just some thoughts from previous experience.

[mb90535im]

Has it been considered that some property owners in the past gave people permission to use the "common lane"? Now, that permission is no longer granted.

I think the issue us more along the lines as stated by G. Witherow of "prescriptive road" status, in which case, it appears permission cannot be simply "no longer granted" after decades of allowing public access.

[The Ole Man]

I've heard that Hills Lake was built by the government. That it was built by the CCC (Citizens Conservation Corp) in the "New Deal", depression era, Public Works Administration Of President Roosevelt in the 30's. I'm not sure how a government lake came to be in possession of a private individual ??

[fancyballwhiskey]

When I lived in Savannah my house backed up on a church property. Myself and 2 other neighbors had carports in our back yards that were accessed by crossing the church property. One day a 8 foot woord privacy fence was installed by the church which blocked the rear enterance to our properties. The final ruling was that although there was never a easement granted, the continued use by myself and neighbors, with the knowledge of the church, created an "implied" easement. The privacy fence stayed but three gates had to be installed to allow us access to the back of our properties.

[mb90535im]

When I lived in Savannah my house backed up on a church property. Myself and 2 other neighbors had carports in our back yards that were accessed by crossing the church property. One day a 8 foot woord privacy fence was installed by the church which blocked the rear enterance to our properties. The final ruling was that although there was never a easement granted, the continued use by myself and neighbors, with the knowledge of the church, created an "implied" easement. The privacy fence stayed but three gates had to be installed to allow us access to the back of our properties.

Excellent example of "prescriptive" passage rights.

[GregoryWithrow]

I take it FancyBallWhiskey found his glasses. :)

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

The lake was not built by CCC. I am going to check with a neighbor who helped build the lake and the other roads there for more information.

However, in my research, I have found that even though the lake is built with federal funds and there is a federal easement, the lake actually belongs to the landowners. Being that it is a flood control dam, USDA must be able to access the lake, unimpeded at any time.

Greg

[likeitinthewoods]

I just don't get it? :bang:


This is becoming more transparent with every posting, this truly is a personal beef not a legitimate issue.

How about a little respect for our environment?

Is anyone so naive as to think if the road is opened back up it will be maintained? Greg even admitted the County will have to start maintaining the road, and with what, magic fairy dust road ointment? And the land owners will without question see to that it returns to its old impassable condition and everyone will suffer as a result.

The only win here is to leave this closed.

A trail is there to walk in, the area has recovered from previous trampling and degradation as I said before why try to fix what isn't broke.

Years of peace and quite and one man returns from the army, has some free time on his hands, and just wants to stir it up! Get a JOB Dude!

One previous quote from dblhaul directed to Greg Withrow:
"Your last few e-mails sealed the deal for me. In the beginning, you seemed passionate about your position. Now you’re leaning more towards unstable and creepy".

I agree with dblhaul, unstable and creepy!


FYI:
The lake was built in 1961-62
In 1960 an easement was granted by Lola Sluder Hill and Charles Willard Hill to The Limestone Valley Soil Conservation District for construction of a flood control dam, the property remains private, but the USDA Environmental has the responsibility to operate and maintain the structure.

[THE EG]

Bobby Bell was the Southeastern Regional Director for TU at the time this was posted. Although he has a trout fisherman's bias, this seemed about as objective and comprehensive an overview as I've seen.

www.georgia-outdoors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38182&referrerid=7292 (http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38182&referrerid=7292)

[mb90535im]

I am no Sherlock Holmes or Encyclopedia Brown, but I am beginning to think Rapp, Dances with deer and I like it in the Woods are the same person. I could be totally wrong, but it's just a feeling I am getting. I need DNA to prove otherwise LOL.

Sure seems likely.

The reason it's still being discussed is because there are those of us who do not consider the issue closed.

[likeitinthewoods]

Rapp and I own in there, he had said he wanted to stay out of it but it got to the point he had to respond. He has been threatened by the Withrows. It's personal on one side of this issue.

I frankly don't want people so unstable to know who I am and don't need his kind around my property.

Sooooo if a few people agree they are all the same people? maybe you're a Greg Withrow "Mini ME" ?

[Dances with Deer]

It would appear that am not the same gender as Mr. Rapp or Like it in the woods.

Mr. Rapp, It seems you were the nice gentleman in the first house on the left who let me in the gate about three years ago on a very cold morning. I was the doe with two young bucks. Remember me?

I have been in the area my entire life and have seen the Hills Lake area recover from the damage that occurred when the area was left open. My children and I enjoy hiking there. It is a beautiful area that can easily be reached by other means. Why now after so many years do we have to disturb these land owners who have kept up and repaired this area? We can still enjoy the area without disturbing them. It seems to me that the Withrows want exclusivity to what is theirs but also want to use what belongs to others as his own as well. DWD

[GregoryWithrow]

I think civility is a key word here. Let's try to maintain that sort of atmosphere. If I have degraded that air of civility here I appologize, but I think what may have happened is that by repetatively presenting the facts and asking for persons on both sides of the issue to come forward, I have erroded a false sense of comfort and commonplacency about the issue, and that is what trully brings out some of the more derogatory commentary herein.

I can assure you that there is no personal vendetta on my part and I do not believe anyone involved here trully has anything against any other person herein. They only disagree. That does not constitute grounds for negative characterizations. Disagreement and discourse in a public forum is the path to resolution of the issue.

Name calling, or ad hominem attacks, only distract from the issue at hand. If you examine my posts, I believe you will find no direct positive of negative characterizations of any person involved.

However, if I am to be a tartget of further attacks so be it, if it helps to serve to common purpose we all have in resolving the issue legally.

Greg

[Gillseeker]

I don't care who is who. Me and PLT are coming so get ready. :D It'll be like the Clampetts Went To Mountaintown Creek!

Dan

[Gillseeker]

I'm bring all 7 kids, the wife, the dog and PLT. All this fighting makes me think the fishing must be AWESOME!!

[Path_Less_Traveled]

Dad... i got three of my own... but pretty much all they'll do is make a lot of noise and pee in the creek :o

[fancyballwhiskey]

Like most agruements there are two sides (I much prefer the agruement where both sides are on the same side :D ). Usually both sides can't see past their "own selfish attitudes". Landowners have a selfish need to protect their property and the qualitity of the property they invested in. Saying that it is to protect the environment may be true but to protect your enviroment is probably closer to the truth. ( I am in a somewhat similar situation and can appreciate your point of view.)
On the other side some people seem pretty insistant that they should be able to go on your road anytime they feel like it, most of it sounds like they grew up here and that is the way it has always been - until you selfish people moved in.- that's pretty selfish. They cover their own selfish intests by saying they want access not for them but for "the kids" .....
I say 40 paces at dawn like real men, or is it deer/men.
Outside of that if some group wants the gate removed get a lawyer, get in front of a judge and agrue your case for the easement. In the meantime the owners can enjoy their homes and if you want to fish walk around.

[riversoque]

Set up a toll gate, charge $100 a day for access. That should pretty much give the revenue to maintain the path

[Labrador]

dollars the place would have to be worth it....or awesome....Ahhhhh, I understand. Dad of 7 can i split gas with you and PLT?

[Gillseeker]

Sure thing..I'll furnish the gas and the ride...bring us a snack or something. I eat organic. ;)

[GregoryWithrow]

Although I have been working on the issue of Hill's Lake Road diligently of late, I have become aware of an error on my part and would like to issue a formal appology to Mr. Curt Rapp.

It was not my intention to characterize Mr. Curt Rapp as a poacher or attach any other negative connotations to him, his name or his opinion regarding the issue of Hill's Lake Road or any other points of discussion in the this forum.

We are all entitled to our opinions.

Please accept this retraction and appology on behalf myself and on the point of good reason in reaching a conclusion to this issue.

My efforts, or any other persons efforts regarding this discussion should not be used to characterize any person in a negative light.

I did not believe that my wording would be interpreted in such a manner, but after review, I find that I must offer this appology.

I will be removing the post in error from this forum as it is misleading and not productive in examining the issue.

Again, please accept this retraction and appology.

Greg Withrow

[mb90535im]

Greg,

Could I ask what your next legal step is related to the issue of the gate and when will we likely know the outcome of that next step?

[GregoryWithrow]

mb90535im,

Currently the county commissioners are examining the issue and there should be a progress report, if not resolution on 10 August at the Gilmer County BOC meeting.

As far as I understand, the county attorney is working on it now.

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

All,
We all take this issue seriously, but can we give each other a break from the repetative jabs?

Several members of both sides of the issues have been personally attacked and the bottom line is that is not the proper manner to conduct ourselves nor express our viewpoints.

Let's leave the talking deer, family references, negative characterizations, and any other personal slams behind and move forward constructively.

Thanks for you consideration,

Greg

[GregoryWithrow]

wlodarb,

I appreciate you being on the side proposing to open the gate, but I want to present this in a light that we can all examine the issue and make informed decisions.

I can certainly find the humor in much of this even though I have been hit by several negative comments myself, but some persons might not take these jabs so well and then it all rolls out of control, leading to threats of banishment from the forum and I do not want to see any person who might wish to offer vaild input be unable to do so, no matter what thiier opinion.

Even though, Mr. Curt Rapp and many others disagree on the issue, I am sure that he and those parties appreciate a logical presentation of the facts and viewpoints so that the correct and legal decision may be attained. That is the purpose of this discourse.

As for the idea of overfishing the area, it was never a problem to catch fish there when the gate was open. In fact, one could go there just about any time and walk all over the area without meeting a soul.

Now, everyone in NGTO may be reading this, and I am sure some will travel there, but many will find the area to be not er accomadating or what they might expect. For the hard core fishers, it will present a challenge. Keep in mind that these are headwaters and a pretty rough area.

On another related point, sexual preference and gerbils do not mix well in some conversations. :)

As for the key, I never wanted a key for myself, but only made the original phone call in order to feel out the situation.

My grandfather could have taken a key, and I am sure that I could have rounded one up somewhere around here in any case.

Yet, I was opposed to the idea of gates and keys in the beginning, because of just what is happening now. I discouraged him from taking a key because I did not think it was the right thing to do.

Keys were offered to just about any person around here locally that had access in the beginning, but over time, the deals made with the land owners offering the keys fell through because they moved away.

Greg

[skibum]

Ya'll done acting like 10y olds yet??? I think at this point, we only need to hear the outcome of this, anything more is POINTLESS!!!

[fancyballwhiskey]

I agree with skibum. This has been beat-i n to death. Your county commissioers may think they can decide the issue but in the end there will still be people unhappy. Take it to a judge (probably state since you say the property is WMA) and end it! Someone will still be unhappy but it will be over.

[The Ole Man]

What's the record for number of views on a thread ? I see this one has been viewed 5,171 times. I bet LBRB45 who started this thread wonders what he stepped in--it was only his 3rd post.

[GregoryWithrow]

Please disregard any reference to landowners or real estate agents (specifically Remax) in any previous posts in relation to the word poaching or poacher. Although names were not mentioned, in the confusing verbage some connections were made that should not have occured.

The wording of those sentences was in error and certainly caused confusion. There was no intention of characterizing anyone specifically and in a negative light.

In any case, those persons are not responsible for the status of Hill's Lake Road and should not be included in conversation regarding the area, unless they wish to voice an opinion or have anything to offer this forum.

Although my source of any information may have been in error, I take responsibility for passing it on and retract the aforementioned statements and references as an error in fact.

Again, there was no intention to defame anyone regarding or related to this issue.

Greg Withrow

[Path_Less_Traveled]

lol... yea.. was thinking about that earlier... i've been through some/most of the older threads (and even the archives)... and dont recall a thread with this many responses/views.

[GregoryWithrow]

FancyBallWhiskey is correct. Not everyone will be happy in the end. However, everyone cannot be happy in a representative democracy, but it sure beats communism.

Greg :bang:

[Curt Rapp]

Well aren’t we all lathered up!

Just two days ago I said we (The landowners) were interested in opening up for a hosted day of fishing because of all the interest in the area. I asked any one interested to send me private messages (because I didn’t want a circus) and we would set it up.

Now with only one person taking me up on the offer, you guys are making implications about flooding the area with people and being not so well behaved.

Here’s the reality of it all, NOW TRY REAL HARD TO WORK WITH ME ON THIS!

The place is available to anyone, any time we don’t own the area you guys want to fish.

SOME OF YOU ARE ACTING LIKE WE THINK OF YOU AS UNINVITED TRASH
THIS IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

Come down here anytime you wish!....have at it… we welcome you…. knock yourselves out… but don’t break any laws or stir up trouble, because then we all lose.

There are past and present Law Enforcement Officers who own behind the gate, I ask you guys to settle down and come to fish without the attitude! Anytime!

How to get there: Start out at Bear Creek Campground and follow the trail, (Don't follow the creek north that will run you right into private property) when on the trail if you run into private property signs you didn’t make a left at the fork in the trail, so turn around. It’s pretty well marked with survey tape I am told. Stay left before the ridge and it puts you into the area of Mountaintown you will want to fish.

And to the guy who is sooooo sensitive, I thought all that banter was real funny especially that you thought I was 3 people, I have a business to run and don’t have time for all those games. You do have a quick wit, kind of off the main stream but funny!
I do have a question, in your picture are your waders pink and are you wearing a red sash? That might explain your sensitivity to the subject.

Now on to Greg,
I got your phone messages, I also understand you have spoken to the gentleman you referred to as a poacher and I have seen your apologies. It is my understanding this man will be staying at my home this weekend and he and I are more than willing to meet with you to discuss this issue in person, which could be the best thing that would happen.

Think about this….
You refer to years ago when the road wasn’t gated you never ran into other people. Think about that statement carefully and the fact you haven’t been around much in the last 12 years. Much has changed places are crowded now especially the ones that are easy to get to. Many people don’t tell about their favorite spots because they have fears of them becoming crowded, this was not the case 12 years ago. Have you looked outside the gate on weekends? There are rows of cars parked down the road that brought mountain bikers and fishermen to the area. These people are all out in the woods enjoying themselves. Did you see those cars 12 years ago? No you did not! as bad as it was before (and it was bad) it will be a more than you bargained for, and all of these people driving by your grandfather’s property that holds better fishing and hunting than any property in the county. You thought you had problems before, by your placing these messages and being on this crusade you have brought about a heightened awareness of the entire area and when the gate remains closed the increased traffic will still be there on your road.

Face it Greg if this gate was to be opened back up our property values will sink. We are prepared to go the distance and spend whatever it takes, are you? And for what? to increase the degree of traffic and problems on Gates Chapel road?

One of your own relatives told me a few months back how they used to own a cabin on the same road you are trying to open. They could not believe you would even consider doing this. They told me they we broken into many times, they even had to put bars on their windows and eventually they sold out due to the problems with both vandals and trying to keep the road maintained. And that was years ago! Look around there are other areas where the entire subdivision has bars on the windows, second homes are ripe for vandals.

We have no thoughts that you’re going to win this, NONE, I just wish you didn’t think it your business to try to regulate ours.

We all have businesses and jobs that take our time each day. We don’t have time for a crusade, I am glad you served our country well, I am sorry you were injured and couldn’t continue, but be positive in your efforts to try to do something worthwhile, by reading your positive posts I can see you speak well and it appears you have much to offer. I don’t make it my business to tell any one what to do but if you want a good cause, call an organization like Forest Watch and help them secure more wilderness, protect our environment and make our area better for everyone. If you want to help Mountaintown then organize an effort to build top notch trail to the area, there are many positive things that can be done to improve the area. Times are different and we need to understand it clearly before we leap.

I know this is all my opinion, but I founded and run a national charity that helps thousands of people every year. I only mention this because I know about these things, and I don’t claim to know it all but I understand what affects me.



Again, so no one takes this wrong, we have no problem with the public having access to the fishing areas, its available to them every minute of each legal fishing hour, it requires a short walk and a small amount of effort.

Curt Rapp

[dblhaul]

Will you guys please lock this thread..The train has derailed..It's becoming a insult to the parties that have been serious about this topic, now is the time for closure on this subject. It's time for someone to show the proper paperwork/deed to show us ALL that the gate is a legal structure. Be done, move on, go fishing. Onward and upward. Thanks, looking forward to the information and closure.

[GregLS]

I don't wont to hear one word about getting your post edited / deleted. As the forum Moderator I warned you early http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/forum/showpost.php?p=411701&postcount=62 .

There are a many people here that have an intrest in where this issue goes and with Greg and Curt and a few other local land owners continuing to maintain civility I want to keep this thread open.

IF you've got some history or relevent information to share about this issue then feel free to share, otherwise remain a 'lurker' on this thread. ;)

Stay on point and continue foward....

[finless brown]

Keep it shut!!!! The walk aint so bad..... besides, the fishing isn't worth a crap up there anyway....

[chuckwagon]

Simply Pathetic!! :mad:

I will certainly voice my opinion to the council. Its private property! Stay out!
Whats wrong with that?


Trey
CW

[riversoque]

I'm with chuckwagon. If you want access raise the money, buy the land and put in your access road. Go to the courthouse and pull the deeds and plats, if it shows that the property is private shut up and take it like a military man; otherwise sue to the cows come home.

[Grizzz]

I have stayed out of this discussion and let GregLS as moderator handle things. But now it is my time to way in a little. We have had a lot of discussions on this board and many that I knew would end up with a lot of name calling. No matter which side you are on with this discussion, I want to thank both GregoryWithrow and Curt Rapp for keeping it civil. There have been times where they came a little close to going off base but over all it has not been too bad.As heated as it could get, they have kept to the facts, expressed their opinions and have done it with class. Even to the point of apologizing when they felt they had misspoke and removed the thread. We are going to leave this thread open, let folks talk about the issues and debate but when members get off-base we will delete their messages as you have seen. I wish more members could learn a lesson from Greg and Curt as to how to debate an issue. Now I am not trying to take this in a different direction, and if you have any problem with me about this post, please email me directly and lets not debate it here.

[mb90535im]

Simply Pathetic!! :mad:

I will certainly voice my opinion to the council. Its private property! Stay out!
Whats wrong with that?


Trey
CW

I'm with chuckwagon. If you want access raise the money, buy the land and put in your access road. Go to the courthouse and pull the deeds and plats, if it shows that the property is private shut up and take it like a military man; otherwise sue to the cows come home.

Just curious, do neither of you guys give any credence to the "prescriptive" status of the road? I traveled that road for many years with my father as a kid, to fish. I'm not convinced it is right to simply gate it after decades of public access.

[Gillseeker]

Y'all wanna go get a beer or somethin'? ;)

[riversoque]

mb,
No I don't give credence to the "prescriptive road". I hunted many lands for years with my grandpa where we knew the landowners. Never did I feel that we were somehow creating an opportunity to use that land forever. In fact as I got older my grandfather made me ask permission to use the land for other things such off road motorcycles, etc. I don't know how old you are, but decades ago people had much more respect for property of others than they do today. Also with liability laws and lawyers being the way they are, I can easily see where new landowners who don't know the locals and seeing their property abused would want to stop people from accessing the area. Things change, I used to hunt right out my backdoor, but the landowners around me have sold out and neighborhoods are popping up. No more huntin'. The original landowners had been kind enough to let me use it so I am glad for them that hey sold it and made some money for their last years, but I can't say to the new guy," Hey I've been hunting here for 19 years you can't stop me."

I'm sorry y'all can't access the property like you used to. But please try and understand the other side. It is just easier to say no to everybody, than to let one in and make someone else mad when you say no to them. Or worse, the original person you give permission to then tells others" Oh he won't mind go on over." Lack of ethics, morals and proper upbringing has brought us to this.

[EFD840]

Wow, for such an emotionally charged topic, you guys have kept this discussion very professional. Well done. :)

I don't know the creek, road, people involved, or even Georgia law but

If it is anything like Alabama law, then don't for one second discount the 'public by prescription' angle. One state to the west of y'all, it is a very valid concept. I personally know of a situation where an individual was hell bent to close a dirt road on his land so he gated it. Some people sued and he lost in court because the road had been open to the public for several decades and therefore was considered a public road by prescription. He refused to accept the situation, continued to gate the road, and ended up with a little county jail time to reinforce the concept of obeying court orders. There are ways a governing body can close these roads, but you simply cannot up and gate them. The gentleman I know didn't even attempt to follow the steps and as a result the road is open to this day.

Again, I don't know who is right in this particular disagreement. Both sides have presented very compelling arguments. I'm merely commenting for the benefit of those that have never heard of a road being public by prescription.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

[mb90535im]

mb,
I'm sorry y'all can't access the property like you used to.

But, I'm not talking about hunding in someone's private fields or woods here, or fishing on someone's private lake or stream. We are talking about traveling a road to get to public land that has been openly traveled for several decades. I see a difference. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the legal system. I personally think gating the road under these circumstances was illegal.

[Path_Less_Traveled]

Yonah Mtn is one example where "public by prescription" didnt work... i'm sure there are others... that road leading to the top of Yonah Mtn had been used by the public for about 50 years before private landowners gated it... as a result, new land had to be bought for a new access... and you and i via taxes still have to pay for maintenance of the gated road!

That was the only access to Yonah (that i'm aware of)... but this area of the Cohutta WMA has road access to via FS 241 and FS 68 (staying out of the private vs public legalities becase i dont know enough about it)... if this were the only access road into the WMA, it would be different... there is a FS road a short distance from Mtntown Creek.

Also... the road in question does not have a FS designation... hmmm.

Now, if someone were trying to close FS 68, 241... or some other main access road like FS 77, 80, 44, 698, 34, etc, then i would have a problem.

[riversoque]

Mb,
I could understand if this was a road that was used for commerce. (My input is strictly hypothetical because I have never seen this area and my knowledge is based only on the posts in this thread and my personal experiences regarding land and people.) But it seems to me this is more a common lane that allows access to several property owners whose property is next to a public land. There seems to be other access to the area. I think weather it is for hunting, fishing , camping, etc. these are all leisure activities and not necessary for sustaining life so to speak, so a little effort to take advantage of the opportunity should be expected.

If I was the current property owner and did not have someone explain that the lane was a public road, especially since the plats and deeds didn't explain it, I would be suing a real estate agent, a broker and a former land owner for not declaring "full disclosure" of the property. If I lived in Gilmer county I'm not sure I would want my county tax money going to buy and maintain a road access to a WMA.

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings,

It seems that everyone must be waiting on the 10th of August and what lies ahead.

I find it very interesting that there has been no real evidence given to the prescriptive status of the road. I have seen a few knee jerk reactions but nothing well thought out as of yet.

As for the idea of commerce upon the road, at one time the road was a mail route, logging trucks ran up and down the road, and the road wnt all the way to Jack's River, where there was a grocery store. Another road ran over to Zion Hill to another grocery store. Of course, these things no longer exist, but prescriptive status did not hinge upon them either.

Greg

[The Ole Man]

Greg--I figured they had given you a life-time pass thru the gate, a Winston rod and an Abel reel by now----just to forget about it. LoL

[GregoryWithrow]

I suppose, the way I see things, that we all have lifetime passes due to federal taxes we pay to support the WMA. It is almost like having a library card, but not being able to check out a book, or maybe even visit the archives.

A new rod would be nice, but I have recieved no such offers, nor would I consider them. In fact, I could have had access to a key at any time, but my opinion, as has been shown, is that no one should require a key.

Greg

[chuckwagon]

You do have access to that WMA at several locations. Maybe not the most easily accessable to you but you do have access. Your tax dollars are not wasted here. Your statement about not being able to check out a book at the library hold no credence here!

I am not sure how many hunters are on the Board. But, If anyone has ever leased land from timber companies? You are not always gonna have access off a PUBLIC road. Sometimes your access if going through someone elses PRIVATE property. In those cases you are given the property owners # to call and work out the access issues. That landowner has the right to grant or deny your access through his property. He may have given the previous leassors permission for the last 50 years. The lease changed hands so you have to get permission granted all over again. Prescriptive or not? !

That PRIVATE citizen has a right to his property.

Lets say the PRIVATE owner is developing that property for a business venture of sorts. He needs that old road bed for his PRIVATE drive into his new business venture. Are we gonna deny him his rights to make that driveway his own driveway? I can see it differently if other owners need that access. Those other PRIVATE landowners can work it out.

Don't make a PRIVATE landowner look like the jack*** here! Get YOUR government to cut a new road into the area you want to destroy! You are paying them so demand it upon those you pay.

The PRIVATE landowner owes you nothing and you owe hime nothing!!

For those that ask if I knew anything about prescriptive rights? A little!

This story isn't much on presciptive but it does explain the PRIVATE landowner side of things.

My Grandfather in downtown Alpharetta owned a 5 acre pond across the road from his house. During the day there was no problem with the locals accessing the pond to fish and relax. Only untill populations grew they started having overfishing,littering and partying at the pond. My grandfather asked kindly for a while and ofcourse got knowwhere. He eventually had to cut off all access to his pond. Ofcourse this went unkindly to the PUBLIC and before long the dam was dynamited by some idiot who lost his permission to fish the pond. Soon the pond was filled in and I myself lost a heckova nice fishin hole!!

You see we all lose in this proposition.

Again, respect the PRIVATE properties rights. Just because you want easier access to Guvment land doesnt mean you have to destroy the PRIVATE rights of our country!!

As stated before, You have full access to this area. Use them!


Trey
CW

[Reel'em In]

Greg, just curious about the Aug 10th meeting and on how it played out? Post any info that came from it.

[markland]

From what I understand from the landowners that were at the meeting, the gate is to stay up and closed. The county and DNR did not want to have to maintain the roads as well as reclassify the road to allow public entry and use. I was suprised that no TU members were there to voice there opinions and it seems like the only people there with an opinion were the landowners involved. Anyway, hope this issue is settled and those that wish to access and use this area responsibly will examine the alternate routes to access this area and enjoy the continued wildness and serenity of the area. Mark

[natchez]

LOL

I spent I good two hours today trying to find the mystery road up to Hill lake!

I am from Alabama and have Jimmy Jacobs book me and one of my deacons at church had backpacked into the Jacks river and fished and camped. (we had a great time I slept in my new hennesy hammok sweet !) Anyway we passed the trail up top to MT Town and I said "I have alawys wanted to fish that creek". I fly fish only! CR only! Knowing there where no bait fisherman sounded nice. I love the Toot! I did not want to fish the head waters because we had hiked enough! I remeberd that Jacobs book said above the lake the fishing was good so off we go! I found bear creek and its camp ground I could never find the next road on my map. I did see rigs road as well as another one that said privet be careful backing up we went back and fourth I saw a trail at Bear creek but know indication of where it went. I would not have minded walking a couple of miles to get to public water I just did not know where to walk from. I was a bit up set as I was 3 hours from home had spent 40 dollers to have access plus lots of gas to only drive around in the rain when I could have been enjoying the creek. I am not sure the road should be open or not but I wish there would have been a sign on the trail how to get to the camp ground and the lake. Maybe the land owners shhould give me the Winston and the Able for my trouble 3 wt thanks or maybe the forest service :) lol Just kidding. We had fun though at the Jacks caught a few fish and enjoyed the woods saw a bear 6 deer turkey and 1 brown and a bunch of little bows

Every Blessing
Rev. Alan Hughes

[Reel'em In]

natchez,

PU a map called North Georgia Wildlife Management Area. It shows roads and trail in the WMA. PU a map from the Forest Service of the Chattahoochee NF. These two together will get you where you want to go.

Also, Riggs Rd (may have no sign) is the little gated dirt road just prior Mtown creek which you crossed over before turning right to go up Bear creek campground.

[dblhaul]

From what I understand from the landowners that were at the meeting, the gate is to stay up and closed. The county and DNR did not want to have to maintain the roads as well as reclassify the road to allow public entry and use. I was suprised that no TU members were there to voice there opinions and it seems like the only people there with an opinion were the landowners involved. Anyway, hope this issue is settled and those that wish to access and use this area responsibly will examine the alternate routes to access this area and enjoy the continued wildness and serenity of the area. Mark

So..The gate stays? Correct?

[markland]

From what I understand the gate stays and will be locked. Mark

[GregoryWithrow]

Greetings,

There was a large turnout of landowners in favor of keeping the gate closed. Only a few people showed up to support having the gate opened.

A petition was submitted with 45 names, supporting opening the gate.

The Gilmer County attorney stated that they could find no evidence that the road was a county road and therefore could not recommend any course of action to the commissioners.

However, I state that the status of the road as a county road was never the question, but its status as a prescriptive road was the issue.

It was recommended that this was not the venue for this issue, but rather a court of law would be more appropriate.

Two of the commissioners did state that they would support county maintainence of the road should it be opened.

Deeds were presented in support of the landowner's case that they owned the road except that part which fall under WMA jurisdiction.

After a quick glance at the deeds, one of the commissioners did remark that there seemed to be a provision therein for a prescriptive road status.

I think that is before us now is which level of government would have jurisdiction in such matters if the county does not or refuses to take action and at least make a decision.

I believe there is much more to this matter than meets the naked eye.

Greg

[riversoque]

Get a $1000 from each of the petition signers and sue.

Unless the Commissioner who thought there was "prescriptive" status is a lawyer in real estate dealings I would ignore his opinion.

The $46,000 will be enough to get you started. Since the county is not going to pay for upkeep then you can form an LLP with all the petition signers and assess each partner for maintenance.

Good Luck.

[mb90535im]

I believe there is much more to this matter than meets the naked eye.
Greg

Small town southern politics at work. Thanks for your efforts, Greg.

Couple of questions:

1) Curious if you're planning to pursue this further?

2) Have you actually pulled a copy of the deed and looked at the wording that caused the commissioner to make the "prescriptive road status" comment? If so would you mind sharing that portion of text from the deed with us?

[Path_Less_Traveled]

ok... i'm confused as to exactly what is gated... is it FS 241 which accesses Bear/Little Bear Creek?... or is it the road just before FS 241 which goes directly to the lake?... if it's FS 241, i have a problem with that... FS 241 is a designated US Forest Service road... FS 241 being gated would make access a little difficult.

[markland]

The forest service road to Bear Creek is always open and will never be closed, it is a public road. The one that is gated is the private drive before that it only runs to the WMA boundary, it is no different then anyone else's private drive that owns land that border the public land. You can see these roads and access points on any forest service map. Thanks, Mark

[Path_Less_Traveled]

ok thanks... there shouldnt be any problem with the other road being gated... if the stream were stocked, it would be a different story... but being a wild stream i see no reason to drive to it (or thru it) and create erosion/siltation problems... no more than a .75 mile hike to the public section... that's easier than most.... printed out a topo to see exactly how to access it (up the draw and across the saddle).

[markland]

Your right, it is not too hard to get to and nice scenery at that. But, to tell you the truth, since they have not stocked it in a long, long time and will not in the future, from what I understand, the fishing is not very good. I only saw 1 trout in there the last time I went and must have caught at least 12-14 horny heads in there and 1 red eye bass, seems like the trout are just not there. Good luck and enjoy that place! Mark

[The Ole Man]

I went to the USFS/TU workday 2 years ago when USFS did some shock survey. They electroshocked about 500 feet (boundary up, off Riggs)--one pass. About every 150 feet, there was a large, secretive brown hidden under the wood. A 19, a 20 and a 21". The remaining fish were smallish rainbows and chubs. A 9 inch bow was a biggie. Looked like ole brownie was fattening up at everyone elses expense. Those big browns in a small creek with their noctural habits and large, small chub, food supply are a hard catch. Not worth the trip imo.