Moving your shoulder?

[Fish Gazer]

With an open stance I sometimes find myself bringing my shoulder around on the forward cast. I have had substantial tracking issues. Is that a problem, especially it seems to cause a problem on my back cast, ugly, very ugly.

Humbly, no physics, I promise, maybe a pulley or two, or a bull whip, (someone used that in a fly casting paper)


gazer

[Fish Gazer]

I swear this is not a trick question, minor point maybe, but heck, I gotta start somewhere.


Jeff

[Jackster]

Had you gone to the S/E FFF Conclave at Callaway this weekend (hint... hint! ;) ) you might have heard Mac Brown discuss this very thing.
He said the more body joints that come into play, the more likelihood of errors. After seeing Jason Stacy lay out more than plenty of line with a straight overhead cast it presented something to work on!
I also noticed a couple other people like Rocket Roy and Kent working that technique out nicely.
I get a nasty hook in my backcast when trying to throw a long line with a side arm cast and it's a bugger! One hint I got for tracking when casting like that is to change my grip from the thumb on top to a three-point grip. Being this was one of those Mondays :bang: , I haven't had a chance to practice that.

[Fish Gazer]

Hi Jackster, thank you.

I can not begin to describe my backcast, ripples maybe? Is the 3 point grip with the index finger on top? I realized I was pulling my shoulder in on the forward cast.

I did see that Mac Brown was there. There were 4-5 things I was interested in, Gar Fishing, Jason, Mr Harris's seminar, M Brown, and I did go, but because of time I could only attend one workshop. It was good, but was only maybe a little over an hour, and it was scheduled for 4 hours, so my plans for the day could have changed.


Thanks

Jeff

[BrandonT]

Whether it be an overhead cast or side cast, the key is to try to keep the rod moving on a single plane... much like a golf swing.

[Fish Gazer]

Thank you Brandon. How did you know I can't play golf either! Now everyone knows. If my elbow is dropping, how can I keep the rod tip in a SLP, my case SLOP. I am working on it.

Not to change the subject but Mr Jackster did mention vertical styles..........Anybody check these videos out of Gunderson and Raejeff.

http://flyfisherman.com/rmwest/bestinthewest/

For some reason the link does not work, but if you copy and paste it in the address bar it works.



Two different styles?


Jeff

[TheEndlessEnigma]

i would say so!

[Rocketroy]

Thank you Brandon. How did you know I can't play golf either! Now everyone knows. If my elbow is dropping, how can I keep the rod tip in a SLP, my case SLOP. I am working on it.

Not to change the subject but Mr Jackster did mention vertical styles..........Anybody check these videos out of Gunderson and Raejeff.

http://flyfisherman.com/rmwest/bestinthewest/

For some reason the link does not work, but if you copy and paste it in the address bar it works.



Two different styles?


Jeff
My careful video review shows the 7 in. difference in distance,shows Rajeff,s footwork creeping away from the line,with each succeding false cast,while Gunderson virtually stays anchored to the "o"point of the measuring tape! The styles are both overhead {aiding in the important tracking element},with the substantive difference being Gunderson,s longer more spread out power stroke,as opposed to Rajeff,s explosive quick haul and power snap,or rotation, on the final delivery! Such almost minor affects{reverse foot creep} are what separates casters at this level of competition,with every long national caster I have been able to observe in person,employing the overhead style...........any other approach being very difficult to time,with any consistancy! An example being baseball pitchers {I was one in high school and service ball} employing a more or less vertical delivery,as opposed to side arm delivery release timing {two planes instead of one!} The video shows both men share one other attribute.......both are huge/strong men,employing body shift resulting in longer more powerful loading of the rod,and the power necessary to aerilize over 90 ft.of line,and shoot the last 30 ft,or more!............consistantly within the confines of a narrow course{ 20 ft.approx.!} The Best of the West,being an indoor events,are not subject to wind influence,as are FLING courses,where long shots are blown off course,resulting in zero score,and are even more dependent on proper tracking.......... locally,we are yet to top 100 ft.,by our local casters! Maybe this Falls NGTO FLING,in Nov.? The challenge may be met this year,by new menber Doug, from Fla.,who topped that number at Callaway,in Jason Stacy,s distance casting Seminar! As a side note, and a big Atta- boy to all,who gave their time to the Conclave,the seminar/teaching events saw every nickle you paid to attend,not go to the experts,but flowed straight into FFF,s treasury,for conservation benefits...........all experts volunteered their time and skills! ATTA-BOY,boys and girls! Cast on!..........Rocketroy

[GEOFF]

Rocketroy - it was good meeting you finally @ the conclave this year. I sure wish i could have stayed for the saturday show. Conversation with you and David @ the "Q" was great. and i have to say i was rather impressed with your 80' cast against the tape... Especially when you dropped the fly right on the tape handle and not to mention it was right down the tape line.. NICE!!!

Gazer - one thing you can try to correct the tracking issue with an open stance is practice with your casting side leg out in front "right leg for right handed casters" instead of your non casting side. What this will do is limit the body rotation. I havent seen you cast thus i dont know where in the stroke your stopping your rod but this excercize improved my tracking greatly.
There is another thing you can try as well that Lefty, and Joan have on there videos.(and ill try and desribe this best i can) A tape or rope laid out on the ground you standing @ mid point facing the tape/rope about rod length away and casting horizontal to against it. Right in front of you. with a simple p/u @ lay down cast, if your line lays on the outside of the tape/rope youve stopped the rod to soon. If your line lands way to the inside of the tape/rope youve stopped the rod to late. You want your line to lay parrallel to the tape/marker. (I hope i was able to word this where you can understand it) IF not send me an email and i'll try and find something on this i can foward you.

[Fish Gazer]

Thanks Geoff, I have some yellow rope, and will make a line. I have done that before, just forgot, that is a great exercise.

Hi Roy, I noticed Raejef take that little step at the end. Look at Gunderson again. I swear he hauls twice on the forward cast before he releases. He must allow the line to slip through his hand then he goes for more. Just an extra little tug at the end. Do you consider Gunderson's style vertical, or is it a hybrid, or is he increasing the stroke length?

Also, I do not mean this as critical, but I do not consider these a relaxed style, especially using a shorter stroke. That seems inherent (sp?) with the shorter stoke.


Thanks

Jeff

[Rocketroy]

Thanks Geoff, I have some yellow rope, and will make a line. I have done that before, just forgot, that is a great exercise.

Hi Roy, I noticed Raejef take that little step at the end. Look at Gunderson again. I swear he hauls twice on the forward cast before he releases. He must allow the line to slip through his hand then he goes for more. Just an extra little tug at the end. Do you consider Gunderson's style vertical, or is it a hybrid, or is he increasing the stroke length?

Also, I do not mean this as critical, but I do not consider these a relaxed style, especially using a shorter stroke. That seems inherent (sp?) with the shorter stoke.


Thanks

Jeff Jeff,They both employ the overhead/vertical plane,as opposed to a more off the shoulder tracking,that most on stream casters comfortably employ! The human body joint configuration probably explains that natural configuration,and does not seem to effect typical distances required.......... on stream,while great distance tracking magnifies any little deviation from a straight line movement of the tip,when a lot of line is in motion! As to Gundersons little final hauling line movement at the completion of his delivery cast,it appears to be an instinctive clearing move of the hand ,rather than a little added tug/secondary haul,which if employed as the line is in motion,would interfere with the late turnover of the loop,and blow the cast.........give her another look,and listen to the announcer describe the smooth turnover,that Gunderson accomplished........which may have spelled the difference of some seven inches.........that or Rajeff,s rearward foot travel I observed! I enjoy the dissection of things casting, but don,t understand your "not to be critical comment"......expand? All disagreements will be read,and cheerfully ignored! Regards, Rocketroy....... BYE!

[Fish Gazer]

Hi Roy

I simply meant that when you shorten the stroke, it seems you speed things up, which does not seem as smooth looking as a longer stroke, not that it matters.

Thanks

Jeff

[Fish Gazer]

Roy, I am comparing it visually to this video of Frank Lopresti. He seems to do this effortlessly. 115 ft

http://www.virtualflycasting.com/lib_dist_xxd.htm


Jeff

[Josh Barnett]

Smoothness, as related to casting a fly rod, deals mostly in the smoothness of your acceleration. Regardless of how smooth the shorter casting stroke appears (generally less smooth "looking" because the "speed up and stop" or "powersnap" is more noticeable because of the timing required to accelerate the line out of the rod tip while using the short casting stroke) the acceleration of any cast, regardless of what plane you're tracking, and what rod arc you're utilizing the cast must be smooth to properly propel the line out into two parallel loops.

[Jackster]

Josh, looking at those two video's I reckon there must be more than one definition of 'smooth'
The word 'powerful' comes to mind in viewing them!

What is with that second minihaul Gunderson used? I never saw anything like that before!

[Kent]

Jack, it may be that we have witnessed the mythical "triple haul". The TH is talked about in hushed tones, if at all; some claim it exists but most believe it's pure bs. In one theoretical analysis, it is used to accelerate the top leg of the loop near the time of loop straightening on a long cast. On very long casts the loop, with certain shapes and sizes, can expend all its momentum on pulling the shoot and not have the necessary speed to finally turn over and lay out flat. The TH adds that bit of line speed, mainly to the top leg of the loop, to insure final turnover. It's like the way we snub a shoot at the last moment to keep it from going in the bushes - clamp down on or pull back on the shooting line and the loop immediately turns over, shortening the cast a little in the process. The TH performs similarly, but its application is slightly different, and the shooting line is release again after the haul.

I'm kinda expecting that bit of Gunderson's video to miraculously diappear or fade out or smudge up. Something like that - years from now casters may refer to having seen it before the rumored TH segment mysteriously vanished.

Better watch it one more time, so as an old f@rt, you can tell your great-grandkids about it. They won't believe it, of course, but you can make listening to the story (repeatedly) a condition to their inheritance of those Sages.

[Kent]

Ooops. Sorry - was 4:30a - 1st cup of coffee.

[Rocketroy]

Ooops. Sorry - was 4:30a - 1st cup of coffee.
Kent, any videos of that triple haul,of mythology.....perhaps thrown by Sasquach,or a mr. Yetti? Scary stuff you may be seeing that time of morning!........get some rest before you reply ........ LMAO, I,m Rocketroy {Not a scientist,just a casting rookie!}

[Fish Gazer]

Kent, Oh I am laughing alright, very funny. :) Guess who tried it. Its the Holy Grail of casting to be sure. I downloaded a copy for safe keeping, now stop laughing. He is clearing the line as Roy stated to to line up with the striping guide, or is that stripping guide.


Jeff