So, what do I have?

[AllenG]

I know it's a black powder rifle.
This was recently passed down to me and I've googled all the names or words inscribed on it and no luck.

Anyone have any idea on the maker or year or--well anything?

Next question. Who would y'all recommend I take it to to have it looked at and maybe see if it could handle a small charge.

Many thanks,

--Allen

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Upright.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Top.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Left.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Cocked.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Bottom.jpg

[Buck Henry]

I have no clue, but that is a very cool looking firearm! German or Austrian made sidelock percussion rifle, but I am just guessing by the writing on the gun. And I have no clue who to send you to on this one. I do know a gun restorer up in Elijay, but he specializes in antique shotguns. He might be able to take a look at it and advise you on it. I can give you his name and number if you want to give him a call. Worst case, you have a very fine looking wall hanger there! Thanks for sharing.

[AllenG]

Thanks Buck.
That's about as far as I could guess too. Percussion cap means post 1830, and it looks Germanic.

I think it was my great^3 grandfather's. His house survived Sherman.

[Trout8myfly]

You might post the photos and description on The High Road in the Firearms Research (http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=31)forum and see if anyone comes back with ideas.

ETA: OK So Eisen = "Iron" and Eisenstadt = "Iron City" (hey, it was made in Pittsburgh!) :)

Dobschauer Esien = Dobschauer Iron (like a type or brand of metal)

[AllenG]

You might post the photos and description on The High Road in the Firearms Research (http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=31)forum and see if anyone comes back with ideas.

I can do that. Thanks.

{edit} and done: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7551252#post7551252

[AllenG]

Two more.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Guard.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr63/awcg/Barrel.jpg

[Buck Henry]

There is a decent chance that this thing was used to reunite a few Yankees with their creator! Let us know what you find out about it; I am very intrigued.

[Architorture]

There is a decent chance that this thing was used to reunite a few Yankees with their creator!
Which would make it priceless!

Eisenstadt is a city in Austria so that guess is likely accurate.

Dobschauer, I believe, is a mine across the border in Hungary. From a map it looks like it is fairly close to Eisenstadt.

[AllenG]

There is a decent chance that this thing was used to reunite a few Yankees with their creator! Let us know what you find out about it; I am very intrigued.

I think this may be the rifle my grandfather left with my grandmother (mind the greats) to protect the home, which is why it survived the war.

[kukukajoo]

Beautiful designwork on that, I bet the balance and weight of it is excellent, too!

And please, please be easy on the yankee comments I have thin skin you know- I might start crying or something!! ;)

Or is it that we just are better at fishing coming from the north? (Ducking and running right about now!).....

[AllenG]

Thank you, Kuku.

And there is no way we would call you a carpetbagger.

[Buck Henry]

We love Yankees! Its them dam Yankees that we don't take kindly too. :)

[kukukajoo]

How long do I have to stay here in GA to be a **** yankee? I think I may be almost there....

And staying for the duration if this **** heat doesn't kill me first! Only thing keeping me from going back is the thought of being able to fish all winter!

[Trout8myfly]

We love Yankees! Its them dam Yankees that we don't take kindly too. :)

What, you mean THESE dam Yankees?

Whatever Lola Wants, **** Yankees. - YouTube

[AllenG]

How long do I have to stay here in GA to be a **** yankee? I think I may be almost there....

And staying for the duration if this **** heat doesn't kill me first! Only thing keeping me from going back is the thought of being able to fish all winter!

My grandfather always said it wasn't Sherman who conquered the South. It was Lenox air conditioners.


There are ways to deal with the heat. Make pitcher of real iced tea, gotta use a bag, and add a pinch of baking soda. It calms down the tannins and makes it silky. Pour that over ice and add lemon and mint. The mint is key.

Ok, now sip the bourbon straight. Repeat until the heat is not so bad. Enjoy your iced tea.

The Brits used a similar strategy when they were in India.

[AllenG]

Which would make it priceless!

Eisenstadt is a city in Austria so that guess is likely accurate.

Dobschauer, I believe, is a mine across the border in Hungary. From a map it looks like it is fairly close to Eisenstadt.

The word after Dobschauer is, eisen, which means, iron.
I'm going to assume it is an Austrian gun, made in the town of Eisenstadt and out of iron from the Dobschauer mine. That's cool.

Frid Schlu? I'm at a loss. The maker, the original owner?

{edit} after having looked at the other thread I'm going to say the maker was Fridrick Schlu.
Still no clue on when it was made.

[AllenG]

I have no clue, but that is a very cool looking firearm! German or Austrian made sidelock percussion rifle, but I am just guessing by the writing on the gun. And I have no clue who to send you to on this one. I do know a gun restorer up in Elijay, but he specializes in antique shotguns. He might be able to take a look at it and advise you on it. I can give you his name and number if you want to give him a call. Worst case, you have a very fine looking wall hanger there! Thanks for sharing.
And having just looked at the other thread....

Hey Buck, this gun is not rifled. It may be a fowling gun and not a rifle. Your friend in Elijay may be exactly with whom I need to speak.
It never occurred to me that this could be a shotgun (sorta).
God I'd love to bust a piece of clay with this thing.

[Architorture]

And having just looked at the other thread....

Hey Buck, this gun is not rifled. It may be a fowling gun and not a rifle. Your friend in Elijay may be exactly with whom I need to speak.
It never occurred to me that this could be a shotgun (sorta).
God I'd love to bust a piece of clay with this thing.

I think it's probably a smoothbore rifle because of the international/mannlicher-style stock. That's where the stock goes all the way to the end of the barrel. That's something you see on rifles and not so much (ever?) on a shotgun.

[huntfish]

It's appears to be a Lorenz Musket Rifle and a **** fine one. The engraving indicates that this might have been a presentation gun. That would also explain the lack of wear etc. Probably a Jaeger based on the barrel design. Look for three digits.....8##, that will tell the year of make. However, if it's a custom gun, it might not have that marking.

http://www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm

As you may be aware, Civil War era firearms can be very valuable so you really need to do your investigation properly. I wouldn't go to a local gun shop etc, but look for an historian. Chickamauga Battleground would be a good start.

[Windknot]

X 2 on the historian. I believe you have an original in fine shape. Its family heirloom status may be far greater than you expected at first glance.

It is purpose-made as a percussion lock, not converted from flint, so it's 19th century weapon. And checkering plus engraving means it did not come from a 19th century Sears & Robucks.

Beautiful. :cheers:

Two possible sources of help.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/
http://www.nmlra.org/

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

[AllenG]

I think it's probably a smoothbore rifle because of the international/mannlicher-style stock. That's where the stock goes all the way to the end of the barrel. That's something you see on rifles and not so much (ever?) on a shotgun.

http://www.fowlingguns.com/fowlers.html
^^^
Not always. The early fowling pieces had mannlicher stocks as well.

[Buck Henry]

Allen, PM sent with info on that gunsmith in Elijay who specializes in antique firearms.

[UncleJesse]

That is a beautiful gun, congratulations on your ancestors taking such good care of it. I did a little poking around the internet last night Atlanta Cutlery handles some antique firearms and might have someone who can help. The other thought comes from watch the TV program "Auction Kings" which originates at Gallery 63, an Atlanta business. They call expert to evaluate guns and other antiques. You might be able to call them and see if they have an expert on guns they will recommend.

[Architorture]

http://www.fowlingguns.com/fowlers.html
^^^
Not always. The early fowling pieces had mannlicher stocks as well.

those are all very early pieces...

[GregLS]

VERY NICE long gun there!:cheers:

Check with Chris Knerr ( cknerr@riflerestorer.com ), he is here in the Acworth area and does some very fine work as well is a wealth of knowledge on old firearms.

http://www.riflerestorer.com/

and get a closer look at his craft here

http://www.gwinnettwoodworkers.com/component/k2/item/402-gunmaking-with-chris-knerr-july-30-2011

[AllenG]

those are all very early pieces...

From the thread on The High Road:
Yes. Smooth, very thin-walled barrel indicates that it is a precursor to our modern shotguns. It could be loaded with a patched round ball, or shot, or a combination of the two, depending on what was to be shot at.

Absolutely beautiful piece!

Notice that there is a second boss on the left side of the breech, as though it could be drilled for the nipple and lock reversed, as for a left-handed shooter?



It looks like it was made to fell birds with shot.
I had not noticed the second boss either, which is kinda neat.

[The Ole Man]

Very nice Allen. Obviously a special piece. Prob going to be worth a nice chunk of change. You are lucky to have it come your way.

[AllenG]

Here is where the trail has led so far:

The smooth bore and thin barrel indicate that it is a fowling piece.
The blank was made in Dobšiná, Slovakia--which at the time was Dobschau, a German speaking, mining town in Hungary and now know for its ice cave (http://www.ssj.sk/jaskyne/spristupnene/dobsinska-ladova/?lang=en)

The blank could be fitted for either a left or right handed shooter, which I think is nifty, and was finished by a gunsmith named Schlu in the Austrian town of Eisenstadt.

So now I'm looking for lists of foundries in one town and gunsmiths in another, both in operation from the 1830s to the 1860s or so.

[The Ole Man]

The Americanization of "Schlu" would be "Shula" as in Don Shula. My German GGGG-Grandfather was Johann Heinrich Drayman which he changed to John Henry Dryman when he reached Philadelphia in 1773.

[AllenG]

The Americanization of "Schlu" would be "Shula" as in Don Shula. My German GGGG-Grandfather was Johann Heinrich Drayman which he changed to John Henry Dryman when he reached Philadelphia in 1773.

I'm lucky. I can trace 4 of my lines to pre-Revolutionary times.
My father's father's line trace back to a Thomas Grubb who came over in 1619 and was part of Jamestown. His son added an S to the end of the name, and his son (whose gun I'd really like to have) served with Daniel Boone.
My father's mother's line were the Franklins and Ben is amongst that crowd.
My mother's mother was a Brown, and they were in Pennsylvania in the 1680s.
And my mother's father was a Clapp. Capt. Roger Clapp landed in Plymouth on the ship John and Mary in 1630.

[Buck Henry]

http://ecdn2.hark.com/images/000/105/744/105744/original.jpg

The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.


Sorry, could not help myself! :)

[AllenG]

Even Dr. Doom is a pale shadow of a villain when compared to Dr. Evil.

[Gene L]

Looks like a smoothbore to me. I didn't see a rear sight and the picture of the muzzle looks like a fowler.

[watkins]

AllenG, Check w/ AmericanLongrifles.com. May be able to help. Great firearm, beautyfull wood, and overall shape. TRW

[knot trying]

They were just here a few weeks back, too bad you didn't have a ticket and take it to their gun expert. Would have been cool to watch how they determine it's provenance.

[Gene L]

AllenG, Check w/ AmericanLongrifles.com. May be able to help. Great firearm, beautyfull wood, and overall shape. TRW

Don't see how that would help, as it's obviously not American and not a rifle. But it's a good site.

[Trout8myfly]

Take it out to Vegas and visit the Pawn Stars! :)

http://www.history.com/images/shows/bios/pawn-stars/pawn-stars-austin-russell_475x240.jpg

[The Ole Man]

Oh yeah !! They will give you at least 20% of what it's worth. :)

[KnotSlippin']

Oh yeah !! They will give you at least 20% of what it's worth. :)

Hey, hey: they gotta business to run and besides, it's gonna take 'em a long time to sell it! It could be sitting on their shelf for years you know. The right collector doesn't come along just everyday, you know... :)

[watkins]

Gene, As with the folk in America, most American long guns, whether rifles or smooth bores, had a start with European influance. On said site, which I agree w/ you is a good one, many of the guys have knowlege of more than just American Long Rifles. :cheers: TRW

[AllenG]

Take it out to Vegas and visit the Pawn Stars! :)

http://www.history.com/images/shows/bios/pawn-stars/pawn-stars-austin-russell_475x240.jpg

I found the gun expert's web site from that show. I sent him the images. 2-3 weeks for a response but I'll post what he says.

[huntfish]

Looking forward to seeing what you find out.

[two feathers]

just a suggestion,have it appraised and if it is of nominal value,then insure it! It is one beautiful piece of work.:cheers:

[Gene L]

If it was a double shotgun, it would be worth insuring. A single barrel, just like today, is worth a lot less.

For general knowledge, you can tell immediately it's a shotgun because it has a shotgun buttplate and a shotgun stock. Not to mention that its barrel isn't rifled, and pretty thin at the muzzle.

I'd say it's a $450 gun, just a WAG. It will be interesting to see how far off I am.

[UncleJesse]

Take it out to Vegas and visit the Pawn Stars! :)

After the photos of the gun were posted I checked the website of the gun expert the Pawn Stars use. He gets $25 for answer about guns. Not a bad gig.

[AllenG]

After the photos of the gun were posted I checked the website of the gun expert the Pawn Stars use. He gets $25 for answer about guns. Not a bad gig.

Gardner's Small Arms & Makers is $75 and my library can't get a copy.
So I sent in my $25 to Tortuga to see what they'll say.

[AllenG]

If it was a double shotgun, it would be worth insuring. A single barrel, just like today, is worth a lot less.

For general knowledge, you can tell immediately it's a shotgun because it has a shotgun buttplate and a shotgun stock. Not to mention that its barrel isn't rifled, and pretty thin at the muzzle.

I'd say it's a $450 gun, just a WAG. It will be interesting to see how far off I am.

I'm thinking it assembled by an unknown maker who used a Schlu lock and a Dobschau barrel.
I'm going to guess the guys at Tortuga come back with a value of between 1 to 2 kay and say it was made between 1826-1860.

[revwayne]

Here's a sporting shop in Vienna, Austria. these guys are the experts in the region: http://www.springer-vienna.com/

They will know what you have for sure. It is a beautiful shotgun!!

[Buck Henry]

I'd say it's a $450 gun, just a WAG. It will be interesting to see how far off I am.

And I am betting Gene followed up the above post with a PM to Allen offering to take it off his hands for $500. :) I am thinking it will be worth more than $450 simply due to it's age and condition.

[revwayne]

Be sure it's worth more than $500. Johann Springer in Austria is known as the gunmaker to Emperors and can give you a real good idea what it's worth especially since it's from their part of the world. I don't think $500 would buy the case.

[wtbfishin]

The pawn show was on today and someone brought in a gun similar to your fine gun, but in no where near that condition, crack stock and other damage and the expert said from $1800 to as high as $2800 I believe they purchased it from him for $1400. Yours has to be worth much more. They also had a revolver from the late 1800 and it had a possible value to the right collector of $30k WHOA! The shop gave the seller $9000 for it. This will probably be the same appraiser you are waiting to hear from. :cool:

[Trout8myfly]

The appraiser - Sean Rich - owns Tortuga Trading Company (http://www.tortugatrading.com/). Interesting looking business; and I'm sure he has some interesting paperwork to keep the feds happy!

[AllenG]

The pawn show was on today and someone brought in a gun similar to your fine gun, but in no where near that condition, crack stock and other damage and the expert said from $1800 to as high as $2800 I believe they purchased it from him for $1400. Yours has to be worth much more. They also had a revolver from the late 1800 and it had a possible value to the right collector of $30k WHOA! The shop gave the seller $9000 for it. This will probably be the same appraiser you are waiting to hear from. :cool:

In my google search researching this thing I ran into his site a couple of times and I figured what the hell. The entertainment is worth at least $25.
When all is said and done this gun will belong to my middle nephew.

[huntfish]

The pawn show was on today and someone brought in a gun similar to your fine gun, but in no where near that condition, crack stock and other damage and the expert said from $1800 to as high as $2800 I believe they purchased it from him for $1400. Yours has to be worth much more. They also had a revolver from the late 1800 and it had a possible value to the right collector of $30k WHOA! The shop gave the seller $9000 for it. This will probably be the same appraiser you are waiting to hear from. :cool:
As a double collector, you are correct about price but often the "right" buyers are overseas and of course, with that much $$ crossing hands, a personal inspection is required. Now then, you have the question of taking the gun overseas, permiting (UK), and of course, the gorillas of the airlines.

[Gene L]

This from another site about the maker (possibly) Friedrich Schuler.

"In 1935 there was an advertisement noting that August Schuler had been in business for 100 years. Of course it is not possibly for the same August Schuler that we associate with German longarms to be that person and he took the reins of a company circa 1850 and the name could have been August Schuler�(or renamed to) as he was the younger brother of Christian Friedrich Schuler who indeed did have a gunmaking business in 1835 and some accounts give the name Friedrich Wilhelm Schuler. Friedrich Schuler was also a gunmaker but had not earned his brief by 1840. Christian Friedrich Schuler was listed as having a manufacturing facility and also fabricated pickles or vinegar. ...............

But using the same name of Friedrich Schuler over 100 years really does complicate things. Also in 1880 there was a gunmaking business founded by Oscar and August Shuler and I think this was the same company that Friedrich Schuler, Oscar & Richard Schuler ran. "

[AllenG]

Wow.
Thank you, Gene.
Seriously, thank you.

[Architorture]

For general knowledge, you can tell immediately it's a shotgun because it has a shotgun buttplate and a shotgun stock. Not to mention that its barrel isn't rifled, and pretty thin at the muzzle.


mind elaborating? what exactly would you say is a shotgun buttplate? especially from the pictures that were posted?

muskets that were intended to shoot single projectiles still had smoothbores even in the 2nd half of the 19th c. so while it is not rifled, it doesnt necessarily mean its main intended use was as a shotgun...

just curious...

[Gene L]

A shotgun buttplate is wide and straight, a rifle buttplate is curved and narrow from that time period. Except on military muskets. Also, the shape of the pistol grip bespeaks a shotgun rather than a rifle.

It was made post 1830, when rifling was common in rifles designed for that purpose. In flintlock days, there were more dual purpose guns...they were made for farmers, etc. This weapon was quite expensive, and therefore was specific. Plus, in Austria, there was very little need for a ball gun, as the opportunity to take large game was practically non-existant.

It also has a shotgun trigger guard on it.

[AllenG]

It will fire.
A buddy who is a black powder aficionado came over yesterday evening and talked me into letting him load it. We both shot it twice.
Much fun, and the first shot was scary as hell.

I never did hear back from Sean Rich. I don't expect I will either, they don't return emails nor phone calls. Oh well, lesson learned there.

[Windknot]

I'm sure many of us in the NGTO firearms division would like to hear that your buddy was exceptionally thorough in his cleanup of your heirloom!

Black powder punishes neglect quickly, and severely.

[AllenG]

We used a ramrod instead of removing the barrel and washing it.
I don't expect it will be fired agin for another lifetime or two.

[AllenG]

A stern email did get a response:

Sorry for any delays or missed e-mails and calls. Sean has been out of town. He mentioned you should have received a response email dated 9/10/11;

Hello Allen,

Thank you for the e-mail and the photos. It is my opinion based on the photos provided that your item is of the period described;

An antique percussion fowler, circa. 1830-50+/-. You have done your homework. Unfortunately, I can not be of further service concerning the maker without conducting some research that I do not have the time for. As for the gun itself; the condition appears very nice. I find the construction very interesting having a double sided patent breech along with a left side lock plate that is not set up (at the moment) to be used. This is most unusual and may be very rare. I would suggest contacting Christies or Sotheby’s in London for an opinion and value.

Since I feel that I can not accurately provide the information for the evaluation you will not be charged for the $25.00 service.

Thank you and I wish you the best of luck !

Sean Rich


Things sometimes get missed. I'm no longer miffed that I didn't get a response earlier.

[huntfish]

A stern email did get a response:

Sorry for any delays or missed e-mails and calls. Sean has been out of town. He mentioned you should have received a response email dated 9/10/11;

Hello Allen,

Thank you for the e-mail and the photos. It is my opinion based on the photos provided that your item is of the period described;

An antique percussion fowler, circa. 1830-50+/-. You have done your homework. Unfortunately, I can not be of further service concerning the maker without conducting some research that I do not have the time for. As for the gun itself; the condition appears very nice. I find the construction very interesting having a double sided patent breech along with a left side lock plate that is not set up (at the moment) to be used. This is most unusual and may be very rare. I would suggest contacting Christies or Sotheby’s in London for an opinion and value.

Since I feel that I can not accurately provide the information for the evaluation you will not be charged for the $25.00 service.

Thank you and I wish you the best of luck !

Sean Rich


Things sometimes get missed. I'm no longer miffed that I didn't get a response earlier.

At least he responded and refunded your $25. I'm sure he has been totally flooded with requests and can probably retire on just answering at $25/request.

[Windknot]

I would suggest contacting Christies or Sotheby’s in London for an opinion and value.

Maybe I watch too much Road Show on PBS [my wife loves it], but those two names made me quiver with anticipation. :money:

Visit your nearest gunsmith and have it cleaned properly. Keep the receipt with the weapon. Black powder is hygroscopic - it sucks moisture out of the air - and quickly causes rust that ruins the value. :bawl:

[UncleJesse]

I believe Windknot and my minds run along the same track. When I saw Sean recommend checking with Sotheby's or Christies I figure he thought you had something of above average value. Those are not where you go to get rid of your JC Higgin's 22 single shot.


You may be able to find someone who can identify your gun at this website, there are several references to German and Austrian guns. http://www.germanguns.com/trade.html

[AllenG]

Thanks guys.

I'm firing off emails to Christies and Sotheby’s.

I'm also taking the piece to a smith in Athens to have it cleaned.