New Comp Regulations [Archive] - NGTO Message Board

miklink

03-04-12, 02:16 PM

Just read this post by Davy Wotton:
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New regulations

Just became aware of the fact that FIPS ruling for the world in Slovenia will not allow for a leader longer than 18ft and only one fly may be used for both rivers and lakes in the event.
Interesting as to why they choose to do this.
More or less eliminates the French long leader systems and the use of rolled nymph, 3 weighted flies.
You are permitted to use a 4m bead and lead to the fly body provided it is concealed by material.

Now that will put the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak.

So l guess you guys who are aspiring to enter the competition scene may need to work on the single fly concept.
My suggestion to you if you wish to extend your fly line with a finer long taper is to splice to your line a extension of level backing line more or less same as you would find for a WF profile line backing. I can think of no other answer to this. Other than say turn a WF around as a full line in reverse using the fine running line for the leader make up.

DW
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I'd say it's a big blow to the comp nymphing techniques.

Prowler

03-04-12, 03:50 PM

Is that rule in effect overseas but still business as usual in the states? Because I haven't heard anything like that for USA comps.

RScott

03-04-12, 04:08 PM

FM has made some rule changes for this year, like they do every year, but the one fly rule for Slovenia is a local rule, not FM or World. The maximum on leaders has been debated forever, not sure where this one will end up.

A bigger challenge to some of us is that going forward, only manufactured barbless hooks will be allowed, not pinched down, filed, or flattened.

2fly

03-04-12, 06:03 PM

It is my understanding that the leader length and fly rule is just for the worlds. As of yet, Fipps hasn't changed the leader length rule. It has been debated for the last year and a half. Hope they don't as I really like the long leader, but I'll adapt if I have to.

Jackster

03-04-12, 07:26 PM

It's the FIPS despiration fishing rules that keeps me from the competitions.
The Euro's HAVE to fish trot lines, their rivers and streams are so messed up and have so much private waters.
Maybe it's time we have an unlimited class here in the good 'ol U.S.A., like they do in some motor sports racing. The limitations are minimal but the trickle-down improvements in gear, tackle and technique eventually find their way to the average Joe. Heck, even the Euro's might learn a thing or two!

Prowler

03-05-12, 12:02 AM

The leader rule doesn't bother me at all because my current leader is about 5 ft. :)

miklink

03-05-12, 01:41 AM

FIPS-MOUCHE is the International Sport Flyfishing Federation, so it's rules apply to USA as we hold membership in FIPS

Those rules are a bit different from comp to comp, however if you read the official rules for 2012-2013, all have those or slightly different restrictions, but always a restriction for the leader length:

***********************************
32nd FIPS-Mouche World Fly Fishing Championships
Bohinjska Bistrica, SLOVENIA, 3-10 june 2012

ARTICLE 9: BANK FISHING COMPETITIONS
9.3. Add: The beats on the river will be an average of 200 m with no buffer zone
Add New 9.6: Wading in river is allowed in all sessions and chest waders may be worn.
Change 27.1. A single leader may be used. Only during river fishing, the leader may not be longer
than double the length of the rod with which the leader is used, up to a maximum overall length of
the leader of eighteen feet / five hundred and fifty centimetres (measured from fly line to the point
fly).
28.5 New: During river and lake fishing only ONE fly is allowed. The use of Egg patterns is
strictly forbidden.
*************************************

And for the Youth:
**************************************
11th FIPS-Mouche Youth World Fly Fishing Championships
Lozère, France 8-15 JULY 2012

ARTICLE 9: BANK FISHING COMPETITIONS
9.3. Add: The beats on the river will be an average of 350 m with a buffer zone of 10m on each side.
Add New 9.6: Wading in river is allowed in all sessions and chest waders may be worn.
On sector I (upper LOT) only 1 dry (floating) fly can be used.
27.1. change: a single leader (measured from fly line to the point fly) may be used with an overall
length of maximum twice the rod length.
28.4. add: the maximum weight of a fly shall not be more than 2 grams
**************************************

Mike

Jakal03

03-05-12, 10:04 AM

The one fly rule is in effect because of fishing regulations in Slovenia, not because of FIPS rules.

Buck Henry

03-05-12, 10:09 AM

I am still trying to wrap my mind around why anyone would need an 18 foot leader! I guess I need to get out more. :confused:

franklinZappa

03-05-12, 11:21 AM

I am still trying to wrap my mind around why anyone would need an 18 foot leader! I guess I need to get out more. :confused:

The longer the leader, the bigger than weine..... leader.

benvan

03-05-12, 11:58 AM

Trouthunter leaders come in 14 ft tapered versions and are the BEST DRY fly leader I have used. THe purpose of the long leader from trout hunter is to not line fish and help fool picky finnicky fish on the Henrys fork. The 18ft+ comp leaders have the same principle. For dry fly fishing it reduces lining of fish plus when nymphing mono under your finger tip has 10x more feel than fly line, so it provides increased strike detection.

S.Trutta

03-07-12, 09:54 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why anybody bothers with this garbage? Fish however you want with whatever you want.....................

S.Trutta

03-07-12, 10:08 AM

"For dry fly fishing it reduces lining of fish plus when nymphing mono under your finger tip has 10x more feel than fly line, so it provides increased strike detection."

I'm not trying to start a confrontation, but I have a question about this "nymphing with mono". How is this any different than chuck and duck fishing? A long amount of mono, a pile of weight, no fly line, lob it into a run and feel it tick the bottom, and wait for the pull of a fish.

The reason I ask is the perception of the technique. Since I fish in Michigan I will use that as an example. When steelheading fishing, there are really 2 ways to nymph for them. One is the standard nymphing with an indicator, similiar to how most people fish for trout. The other way is "chuck and duck". Spool of Amnesia/Zipline (mono), lots of weight, no fly line, lob the rig into a hole, feel it bounce bottom, and set the hook when you feel a pull. This is a setup usually used only by people new to fly fishing as its extremely easy and people can get fish right away without learning how to fly cast, mend line, etc. I dont discriminate at all in how people fish because i think everyone should fish however they want as long as its legal, but in general most people consider this a starter technique and is far below standard nymphing in terms of skill.

Now, the very opposite is true with these same tactics for trout fishing. I use a strike indicator while fishing for trout, just like I do for steelhead. A few friends in my Dad's TU chapter are competition guys and they are strictly czech nymphers. On a recent outing they recently joked "when i was going to take the training wheels off and loose the indicator". I snarked back that I was actually casting fly line, mending, etc and that they were doing nothing different than chuck n duck, just with a fancier name to make themselves feel better.

No doubt czech nymphing/chuck n duck is effective as all get out, and again I have absolutely no problems with this technique or anyone who uses it.....but I fail to see how this is somehow a "more refined" or more skillful technique? For steelhhead its how we put non fly fishers onto fish, why is it any different for trout?

Rich

benvan

03-07-12, 10:17 AM

Im not sure I have an answer for you. When czech nymphing I do feel the bottom and it is almost exactly what you describe. I will say that it is a little more complicated when using small nymphs and size 7 and 6x tippet to reduce drag and get flies into the strike zone easier. Now when dry fly fishing and or dry dropping with a long line leader, we mend, we highstick, we fish that stuff just like fly line, because the mono is boiled to lose memory and is supple like fly line at that point. I can say that the technique is refined in part to keeping "constant" contact to the fly. THis in turn yeilds higher hookups than traditional nymphing with mends, fly line, indicators which induce slack into a system. From a competition stand point that slack and missed fish can be the difference between winning and losing, and therefore a tool to add to the arsenal is czech, french, or spanish nymphing.

Now there is the new line from cortland which greatly reduces leader length in my mind, as the fly line has the feel of braid. You get the advantages of fly line, and the advantage of a long leader system. I can say that the Chuck and DUck is somewhat true, but on the smaller nymphs the leaders/line/mono is tapered to a tee, so that there is turnover and these leaders actually cast like fly line, where as a straight running line of amnesia, I would assume would not.

I hope this clarifies some, but am sure I don't have the exact answer you are looking for.

Dell Neighbours

03-07-12, 11:30 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why anybody bothers with this garbage? Fish however you want with whatever you want.....................

That's what we do...

benvan

03-07-12, 11:51 AM

good youtube clip, that focuses on the eternal conflict between different views on fly fishing. Nymphing, swinging flies, indicator fishing, czech nymphing. In the end do what is legal, fun, and floats your boat. In a "FIPS" comp though these competition techniques we call czech nymphing are a tool we use.

Enjoy: (please be mindful of some language)
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=QPD8L-AzLV0

Col. Forbin

03-08-12, 09:03 AM

[QUOTE=S.Trutta;689160 The other way is "chuck and duck". Spool of Amnesia/Zipline (mono), lots of weight, no fly line, lob the rig into a hole, feel it bounce bottom, and set the hook when you feel a pull. This is a setup usually used only by people new to fly fishing as its extremely easy and people can get fish right away without learning how to fly cast, mend line, etc. I dont discriminate at all in how people fish because i think everyone should fish however they want as long as its legal, but in general most people consider this a starter technique and is far below standard nymphing in terms of skill.

Does it take more skill to cast a bobber, and wait for it to go under, or nymph with weight and not get snagged on the bottom?

When people "chuck and duck", how are they able to maintain any kind of drift? Are they just pulling it through the water?

S.Trutta

03-08-12, 09:47 AM

My vote, and this is only my opinion, is that it takes alot more skill to fish a bobber. You cast a fly line, you need to be able to mend line to achieve a drag free drift, adjust the bobber depending on the depthh of the water etc. With chuck n duck there is no casting, you lob it like a spinning reel. There is no mending, there is no drag free drift, and you simply wait to feel the fish pull the fly. Its the single easiest way to catch a fish on a fly and its why many of the local guide services use that technique for newbie's or people who dont fish very often.

Dont get me wrong, I have no problems with this technique and a few times every winter when its really cold I'll fish chuck n duck myself......my problem has been with a handful of people (not necessarily on this board, but people ive seen on the rivers) that talk about it like its some elitist type technique that is above whatever I happen to be doing. Like all the different sub groups of fly fisherman, czech nymphers have some snobs amoung them, but i wasnt meaning to insult or call anyone out.

Its not my cup of tea, but to each his own. As long as its legal and your having fun its all the same to me.....

Rich

benvan

03-08-12, 10:03 AM

I get what your saying Rich.

One thing I think that ''czech,spanish, and french nymphing" do differently than chuck and duck.

1. True, "long line/short line nymphing" induces drift
2. long line/short line nymphing can be used in coordination with a "jig technique'' "swim technique" we impart action into our flies through the tightline system.
3. long line/short line nymphing utilize specialty tapered leaders, instead of level mono. In fact many of these leaders can be used for dry fly fishing or nymphing. I KNOW straight level mono/amnesia will not turn over a dry fly rod. We do use Tuck Casts a lot as well.
4. Most of us use specialty rods for long and short line nymphing where the rod is able to load for an actual cast with a GOOD mono leader, and with tungsten flies, but can also turn over a weightless dry fly with the "Good" leader. I figure anyone can grab a carrot stick or fly rod, attach mono and flies, and LOB.

Off the top of my head those are the differences I see in Chuck and Duck vs Long/Short lining.

Col. Forbin

03-08-12, 12:45 PM

[QUOTE=S.Trutta;689316] Rich, I don't care how anyone fishes, no offense taken on my side.

I am curious to know how the "chuck and duck" fishers are able to achieve a drift though. Do they just let the line go with the current, or do they actively pull it through the water?

S.Trutta

03-08-12, 02:37 PM

Col. Forbin

03-08-12, 03:16 PM

"I am curious to know how the "chuck and duck" fishers are able to achieve a drift though. Do they just let the line go with the current, or do they actively pull it through the water?"

I think its a combination of things, dont know if there is really a wrong way to do it. When fishing egg patterns i think most guys just let it drift, but i know when fishing some bigger nymphs and buggers and stuff guys will let them swing out and kind of swim them along.

Thanks, I'm still having trouble picturing how they do it, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Seems like it would be hard to get a decent drift with that much weight, and no floater or fly line. I guess if you were in a bend or something it may work better.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel out the center pin anglers up there?

2fly

03-08-12, 06:39 PM

I'm not sure about the chuck and duck technique either. When I fish my rig, i'm never lobbing it into the run. I can flick cast this upstream and be on the drift immediately. I can make it tuck cast at the same time to drive the flies to the bottom quickly. I've used this technique to get my rig under low hanging trees as well. It is in my opinion, much more versatile than fishing with an indicator. I say this not to convince anybody that this is the way to go, everybody should fish the way they are comfortable with, but I did want to dispel the notion that we are lobbing 5 lbs of flies into the runs above us.

Buck Henry

03-08-12, 06:47 PM

I am not asking this question to be a smart a$$, but if all you are doing is throwing a heavy fly attached to long piece of monofilament off the end of the rod tip (meaning no casting of a fly line), then can you enter comp fishing events with an old time cane pole or one of those Japanese style Tenkara rods?

benvan

03-08-12, 07:28 PM

No. It has to be a fly rod with a reel. One huge misconception everyone is making is the fact that the czech technique is 'comp fly fishing'. When presented with risers you better have a good leader to turn over a dry, you need a rod for streamer fishing and swinging wets. Because there are no boats involved in 80% of these comps the option to carry a rod for each purpose is null and void. Hence the develop,ent of long leaders that an angler can czech with, then switch to a dry all on the same rod, and same leader. Versatility is key. When a change is needed for a streameror wet system a conventional line and leader setup is more desireable.

Czech nymphing only uses HUGE heavy flies when the condition calls for it. Josh Stephens and a lot of DD use Small tungsten nymphs sz 18 on 7x to decrease drag and stay in the strike zone. Those flies are really not that heavy and fishing 7x effectively takes some skill as well. The rod, the reel, the leader, flies, and angler all have to be in tune.

Gatorbyte

03-08-12, 08:14 PM

I've been watching these guys fish at Dukes and they are using so many split shot, I guarantee, there's no Fly Casting as we all know it. They're also fishing under an indicator. Does that make it wrong?

I say no, not all.

Nymphing/wet fly is fishing flies subsurface. It doesn't mater if you're using split shot or not, indicators or sighters but it is using fly tackle.

dry fly is fishing floating flies

Casting is how we deliver the flies to the water.

Competition fishing is making a game of fishing for the day using a specific set of rules. It uses a wide array if techniques.

I do see the argument where long stretches of monofilament are added to the end of a fly line and it is called fly fishing. I think it's splitting hairs and the reality is that most folks don't do that. But it is currently within the rules if comp fishing. It is definitely limiting, but mind you, in order to present a fly or nymph with mono, you still have to be able to fly cast. As heavy as some of these nymphs are, you still can't cast them like a spinning rod using 30# mono between your leader and fly line. You still need to load the rod with the mass of the line, motion of the cast, tension of the flies on the surface in order to bend the big giant spring we call a fly rod.

Col. Forbin

03-09-12, 08:56 AM

If you are just lobbing a cast off the reel, with a lot of weight, why do you have to duck at all? The weight/fly would be traveling away from you the entire time. Sounds more like plain ole chuck to me.

S.Trutta

03-09-12, 02:39 PM

It is definitely limiting, but mind you, in order to present a fly or nymph with mono, you still have to be able to fly cast. As heavy as some of these nymphs are, you still can't cast them like a spinning rod using 30# mono between your leader and fly line. You still need to load the rod with the mass of the line, motion of the cast, tension of the flies on the surface in order to bend the big giant spring we call a fly rod.

Not true actually, not the way people chuck n duck fish up here anyway. It is simply a spool of amnesia/zip line, a regular leader setup, quite a bit of weight, and a tandem nymphh setup. There is no fly casting....this setup is literally cast like a spinning rig. You pull line off the reel, pull your split shot and flies close to the tip top, and then throw the line out like you would with a spinning rod. The weight pulls the line out as far as you want to cast. It sounds like the casting is different than with czech nymphing......but the the rest sounds exactly the same to me, wether you are using fancy rods, leaders. sighters or not.

benvan

03-09-12, 02:47 PM

the rest is the same except:?

We "actually cast"
we dont use split shot
Our flies are limited to the weight we can hide in the dressing and a 4mm bead.
We do not always czech nymph
A lot of us short line nymph much like Aaron Jasper with 12-14ft leader and fly line. SImply youtube and you will see effectively casting a 12-14 leader with fly line.
We ''use'' ALL of our fly fishing knowledge on techniques for any beat or section of river that may be applicable.

"True czech nymphing uses fly line, polish nymphing uses longer leader than czech, french and spanish nymphing use extremely long leader systems"
French nymphing differs by using a curly q which acts like a strike indicator...

ALSO a huge problem I see with all of this competition/czech nymphing stuff, is the fact that people correlate Czech nymphing to competition fishing as one in the same....which is simply untrue.

Col. Forbin

03-09-12, 03:11 PM

Not true actually, not the way people chuck n duck fish up here anyway. It is simply a spool of amnesia/zip line, a regular leader setup, quite a bit of weight, and a tandem nymphh setup. There is no fly casting....this setup is literally cast like a spinning rig. You pull line off the reel, pull your split shot and flies close to the tip top, and then throw the line out like you would with a spinning rod. The weight pulls the line out as far as you want to cast. It sounds like the casting is different than with czech nymphing......but the the rest sounds exactly the same to me, wether you are using fancy rods, leaders. sighters or not.

I still don't know why they have to duck? Are you mad b/c they catch more fish than you?

Gaines'BowBum

03-09-12, 03:26 PM

I still don't know why they have to duck? Are you mad b/c they catch more fish than you?

But it doesn't sound like rich is mad...

And if you know anything about fishing in Michigan, you'd know it's definitely not a numbers game... Unlike comp fishing. Up there, depending on what you're fishing for, a good day might be a fish or two.

Quality over quantity!

2fly

03-09-12, 04:22 PM

First off, this is a competition forum and it's purpose is to share info or ask questions on techniques etc. I have failed to see a real question posed on comp nymphing techniques yet from Rich. It's more of the same, comp fishing isn't real fly fishing yada yada yada. There is no mending the line while nymphing, you are in direct contact with the flies at all time hence the high success rate of the technique. There is casting involved and absolutely no chuck and duck. I can place my rig within 12"s of my target. I'll work an inside seam and then move inside a foot and work that seem and then move another foot inside until I've effectively worked the run without spooking fish. Lastly, it's only one tool of many for comp fishing. Sure if the fishing is tough, this is the go to method most times just like plastic worms are to tournament bass fishing. We share what we learn to hopefully help other people broaden their arsenal of fishing methods. Again, if you don't like comp fishing, that's fine. Don't come on here and hammer us for what we like to do.

Col. Forbin

03-09-12, 04:30 PM

But it doesn't sound like rich is mad...

And if you know anything about fishing in Michigan, you'd know it's definitely not a numbers game... Unlike comp fishing. Up there, depending on what you're fishing for, a good day might be a fish or two.

Quality over quantity!

1 or 2 fish on a good day? Is that chuck and duck, or indicator fishing?

The description of "chuck and duck" in this thread sounds an aweful lot like center pining. But I wouldn't know, cause I've never fished in Michigan.