comp techniques

[keeper27]

Ok, I have to ask: I keep hearing about all of these "comp techniques" on this board from all of you Team Deaddrift guys. Besides Czech nymphing (which I will admit, I know very little about), what are these comp techniques and what are their associated benefits? I can read and interpret rise forms fairly effectively, and, for the most part, can catch fish on the Hooch during a may fly, caddis, or midge hatch (assuming the wild brownies at JB cooperate and the fishing Gods are in a good mood that day). Is there like some killer way to drift a dry fly or an emerger above/under the surface film that I'm missing out on? Anyways: this post is for all of you deaddrift guys and for those who know about these techniques.

I also have to admit, I do not understand the point of "competitive fly fishing". There is such a wide variety of parameters that affect the success of a fly fishing trip (especially one targeting trout) that it would seem to be a very hard thing to judge. Or, as John Gierarch points out, "the man who chooses to stay at home and drink a glass of fine wine would have to be awarded a certain number of points sheerly because the Red Quill hach didn't come off that day". Granted, sports such as golf have a wide variety of parameters as well and have been legitament competitive sports for a century or more.

Anyways, if someone could elaborate on all of this, enquiring minds are curious :).

Tight Lines,

Joshua

[Buck Henry]

FYI: moving this thread to the Comp Fishing forum.

[Gatorbyte]

Comp Techniques in itself is somewhat of an inaccurate term becuase any legal technique can be use in competition fishing so don't get too wrapped up in the terminolgy. The main difference lies in the restriction of rules we refer to as FIPS Mouche, the international governing body for internaltional competitve fly fishing. The primary restriction is no added lead (split shot) or floatation devices (strike indicators) can be used. As a result, most competitive anglers use Euro Nymphing (Czech, French, Polish...) when nymphing and the use of colored mono as a "sighter". As a whole, a competive angler should be able to use a wide array of techniques with success. This includes streamer fishing, dry fly, nymphing and swinging wets.

[Kent]

"Comp techniques" could better be called "specialized fishing techniques". The specialized techniques as comp anglers use them relate primarily to their being restricted to a beat with an enforced time limit...and a pure goal of catching the most fish without consideration of what you may think of as fun.

There's really not much new under the sun.

The comp guys do get to claim some special status, plus some sweet swag and special deals on private water. And maybe they impress some of the chicks.;)

[cucarachafly]

And maybe they impress some of the chicks.;)
I am not a comp fisherman, but I think one of the techniques used is that a longer fly rod and longer leaders are used to better dead drift a nymph. I'm not absolutely positive about that, though.

But if that is the case, a great marketing campaign could be borrowed from, I believe, an old Nike campaign add that featured the term, "Chicks dig the long ball." Maybe Winston could come out with one of those comp rods with a new campaign- "Chicks did the long rod."

[benvan]

Kent hit the nail on the head...its all for the chicks. Jk
Seriously they are just fishing techniques that have been around a long time modified. A list of regulations we have to abide by. Some of the techniques like the Y dry dropper technique and curly Q are direct innovations in techniques for comp fishing.



If u want to know specifics let me know, but I hope I answered the question as well as possible without inciting an argument or releasing the quadrazoid godzillakunja trout gods after me. ;)

[cucarachafly]

. Some of the techniques like the Y dry dropper technique and curly Q are direct innovations in techniques for comp fishing.

In all seriousness, I think an explaination of these techniques and any others you guys use would be great. In that I pretty much throw dry flies up stream with a bamboo rod, I am not familiar with these two you mentioned but would like add a couple of arrows to my quiver for those times when I need to do something different to get a skunk off.

[2fly]

I'll jump in and explain the "Y" dropper technique. It's mostly used for faster riffle water and since we fish everything off a tag, you make sure the tag knot is above the dry fly out of the water which basically forms a "Y" or in inverted "V". When a fish takes the dropper the dry fly will jump due to leverage. The other dry fly technique is the spin or twist. This is used for slower water and basically you are watching your dry fly to rotate while drifting. These both are useful for very subtle takes. Also the twist/spin works best with a stimi with rubber legs. The curly is just colored mono wrapped around a 1/4" dowel, boiled and the left in the freezer over night. It's basically a spring that will expand when the fish takes. It replaces a thingamabobber. It's better suited for shallow water fishing but some people will grease their lines and use it for slower water. Not a big fan of it myself, but I do see it's advantages. Note on this technique, longer strike set is needed due to built in slack from the curly. As both Ben and Bret said, we use all the techniques, but nymphing will consistently score more and bigger fish than the others and that's why comp guys work hard to master it. All techniques have their place though and it's the comp angler who can adapt the quickest that usually does the best.

[pbourcq]

In all seriousness, I think an explaination of these techniques and any others you guys use would be great. In that I pretty much throw dry flies up stream with a bamboo rod, I am not familiar with these two you mentioned but would like add a couple of arrows to my quiver for those times when I need to do something different to get a skunk off.

I had a lengthy writeup with comp techniques, leaders, and all of the voodoo some time ago. Give it a search.

[cucarachafly]

I had a lengthy writeup with comp techniques, leaders, and all of the voodoo some time ago. Give it a search.
I did a search using competition fishing techniques under your name and came up empty. Would it be too much trouble to repost here. I think this would help keeper 27 with his original question and be good info for everyone. Thanks.

2fly's explaination is some interesting stuff and great info. With the way I cast, I get those curly q's with out even trying!!!

[Gatorbyte]

Here is a plagiarized primer:


Czech Nymphing: In a method sometimes called "short lining," about 2 feet of fly line extends from the rod tip, followed by about 7 feet of leader and 3 feet of tippet, with one or two droppers tied to the leader. From downstream, standing a rod's length from the spot you intend to fish, perform a tuck cast driving the weighted anchor fly quickly to the bottom. Swing the rod in a downstream direction, advancing the flies ahead of the current through the kill zone. Feel a bump? Set the hook. At the end of the pass, flick your wrist to pull the line from the water, allowing the weight of the flies to load the rod tip behind you, then tuck cast to the next spot.

Rod position: About shoulder height (High Sticking)
Cast: lob or tuck cast
Presentation: drift with current
Fly selection: choose flies based on weight. Not limited to Czech nymphs
Leader: Uses a Straight Sighter

Polish Nymphing:
Use woven nymphs and tend to pull the flies through the current whereas the difference between high sticking and Polish nymphing is that the rod is kept low and is not raised as the nymph comes toward you as the “high” in high sticking does. There is no mending in Polish nymphing. Instead, the nymphs are led and, if necessary, gently pulled downstream. This maintains a tight line to the nymphs and the rod leads the flies. In high sticking you try to keep a drag free drift, mending as needed and the rod does not lead the flies, but is kept directly above the flies. The rod is gradually elevated well above your head (hence the name – high sticking) to keep the line off the water as the flies drift toward you. The high rod position is then lowered as the nymphs pass you and go downstream from the angler’s position. In Polish nymphing the nymphs do not pass the anglers position but rather the rod is picked up with a wrist twist at that point and another cast is made. The drifts are very short, 5 ft. long at the most, whereas the high sticking attempts to prolong the drag free drift as long as possible by casting well above the angler’s position and extending the drift well below the angler.

Rod position: Low to the water
Cast: lob or tuck cast
Presentation: gently lead or pull through the current
Fly selection: choose flies based on weight. Not limited to Polish woven nymphs
Leader: Uses a Straight Sighter


Spanish Nymphing: A variation on Polish/Czech style, it's used when fishing at longer distances, usually with a 10-foot rod. A longer leader is attached to as much as 40 feet of mono line then fly line. At the end of the pass, lift the line, rolling it in what is sort of an oval lob cast, flinging the weighted anchor fly to where you want it. You're not doing a back cast. Uses a Straight Sighter


French Nymphing: Similar to Spanish style, but the rig is fished straight upstream. The Curly Q is the “strike indicator” in this instance.* You watch for the coil to stretch indicating the take.
In the absence of a strike indicator, the position of the weighted anchor fly determines the dropper's depth. In a two-fly rig, the anchor is tied at the end of the line; with three flies it's in the middle. In shallow water, move the anchor to the front position, or the middle if you're using three flies.
For your anchor fly, use something big and heavy, a Polish Worm tied from a latex condom or stonefly in
a size 10 or 8, sometimes a 6. The fly is beaded or leaded so the hook rides up. For the dropper you can use anything. Can also use a straight sighter in lieu of Curly Q.

Dry Dropper: With a dry dropper setup you can nymph a variety of water using a bushy dry or foam bodied dry as a means to float your flies through the water column. The dry will also work as an indicator. The methods above can also be done using a dry dropper rig. If the water is too shallow, there is nothing saying that the dry has to even touch the water surface.

Basic Leader Design:
Use blood knots to connect sections
9’ 0x mono leader
16” sighter 15 lb test amnesia (can be bicolor if you use two 8” pieces of 1 red and 1 green)
4’ to 7’ Flourocarbon tippet based on depth of water to be fished tapered down to transition from 15 lb amnesia, i.e. 10lb – 8lb – 4x – 5x Double surgeon knots can be used

French Curly Q recipe
Small dowel 3/16” is my choice but can be whatever size you choose. Golf tees are also often used
10lb test Stren High Vis Gold (or colored mono of your choice)

Duct tape mono to dowel leaving at least 4” excess to tie into leader.
Spool mono onto dowel coming directly off the spool making sure not to add twist
Make about 20 – 25 wraps (about ¼” to 3/8” long)
Tape end and leave at least 4” tag
Several indicators can be made on one dowel
Boil 9 minutes in water with 1 or 2 tablespoons of vinegar making sure to keep submerged
Freeze overnight

Sighter Materials: Amnesia (red, green, black), Stren High Vis Gold, Stren Solar Collector Green, Other monofilament and specialty products

Leader Materials: Rio Max tippet, Maxima Chameleon tippet, Sunset Amnesia, P-Line flourocarbon (down to .007” diameter/4lb test) and Berkley Vanish flourocarbon (down to .003” diameter/2lb test)

Flies: tend to be slimmer without legs and use tungsten beads as well as lead underbody to get flies down in the zone quickly. Basic patterns include:
Mayflies: Frenchie/Pheasant tails
Caddis Nymphs: Hares Ears/Czech Nymphs/Polish woven flies/Surveyor
Stonefly nymphs: Girdle bugs/Polish woven flies (longer bodies)
Midges: Soft Hackles (Iron Blue Dun/Starling and Purple) Rainbow Warrior

[Gatorbyte]

And a link to the thread I think Paul was talking about:

http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84238

[RScott]

At the end of the everloving argument, it is all the techniques you know plus a dozen. Bottom line for me is that if you can master 2 techniques, you will catch more fish than you ever thought possible.

FIPS Mouche is the governing body that makes up the official rules and revises them without rhyme or reason to **** off one country or another, but everything has rules, everybody has rules, this forum has rules.

If you can't read the water, nothing will help you. And by reading the water I am not just talking about riffles, seams, and pockets, but about what is going on the the stream. The most important competition techniques assume at least a modicum of competency in Flyfishing 101. The real talent is not in how you cast or what flies you use, it is in seeing the water, what is going on in the water, and in the air.

After being on this board for 13 years and an avid fly fisherman for a long time, I can honestly say that I have learned more about catching trout with a fly rod in the past 18 months than I did in the previous 12 years. Most of it is unbelievably simple to understand, but ever so hard to put into consistent practice.

If you want to learn about leaders, flies and other gear, I can fill you in in a couple of hours. If you want to learn competition techniques that matter, I will have to let you know in a few years (I changed my signature line for a reason.)

[keeper27]

Guys,

I sincerely appreciate the responses. I will have to check into some of those techniques. I was aware of the dry/dropper method, but that in itself is pretty standard approach for Fly Fishing 101 (assuming such a course is offered). I have been fly fishing now for almost 14 years (started when I was 12) and a large portion of that took place on the Hooch tailwater, where my dad taught me to fly fish. My typical setup involves a tandem rig of nymphs or a dry/dropper setup (depending on the time of year) and that's pretty much the limit of my knowledge in terms of different rigs and approaches to fly fishing for trout. I had heard of these different forms of nymphing such as Czech and Polish nymphing that you guys mentioned, but knew very little in terms of what they actually entailed. Knowing the different hatches on the river, how to read a stream/the water, etc, is all very crucial knowledge in itself, but I've always seemed to come up short when there wasn't any kind of surface activity going on. I knew that nymphing could be very productive, but have never just had tons of success strictly nymphing at Jones Bridge. My good days involve when the caddis, midges or may flies are hatching. And when they aren't, that's when I struggle to do well at all, because it's all mainly nymph fishing at that point. Next time I go out, I'll have to give some of these "tips" a shot!

Thanks for all of your knowledge and wisdom gentlemen,



Joshua

[DavyKnot]

Rio sells indicator fly line with an accented tip. Is that legal in comps?

[Gatorbyte]

Rio sells indicator fly line with an accented tip. Is that legal in comps?

Yes it is.

[2fly]

Guys,

I sincerely appreciate the responses. I will have to check into some of those techniques. I was aware of the dry/dropper method, but that in itself is pretty standard approach for Fly Fishing 101 (assuming such a course is offered). I have been fly fishing now for almost 14 years (started when I was 12) and a large portion of that took place on the Hooch tailwater, where my dad taught me to fly fish. My typical setup involves a tandem rig of nymphs or a dry/dropper setup (depending on the time of year) and that's pretty much the limit of my knowledge in terms of different rigs and approaches to fly fishing for trout. I had heard of these different forms of nymphing such as Czech and Polish nymphing that you guys mentioned, but knew very little in terms of what they actually entailed. Knowing the different hatches on the river, how to read a stream/the water, etc, is all very crucial knowledge in itself, but I've always seemed to come up short when there wasn't any kind of surface activity going on. I knew that nymphing could be very productive, but have never just had tons of success strictly nymphing at Jones Bridge. My good days involve when the caddis, midges or may flies are hatching. And when they aren't, that's when I struggle to do well at all, because it's all mainly nymph fishing at that point. Next time I go out, I'll have to give some of these "tips" a shot!

Thanks for all of your knowledge and wisdom gentlemen,



Joshua

Joshua, if you ever want to meet up, I'll be happy to show you what I know on nymph fishing. I usually fish IF and it's a great place to learn due to all the different conditions you can find there. You've got shallow riffle, deep slow runs, standard nymph runs and diagonal runs. JB has some shoal fishing, but no diagonal runs that I know of. I'm going to try and get out Friday if the reever isn't blown out.

[benvan]

Scott, is right on about mastering at least two to be good, and master more than that to be GREAT. The thing with competition fly fishing is that an angler has to be able to adapt, and adapt on the spot to stay in the game. I feel that is the biggest advantage an Great angler has, is simply not hesitating and knowing when to switch it up.

These are the things I have noticed that make a great competitive fly angler. (i am sure Paul can give his 2 cents as well with his own experience. He is the new Coach of the US Youth Team and they brought home a Silver Medal from France this Month!)

1.) well versed in all Fly Fishing Techniques. Angler can streamer fish, dry fly fish, and nymph effectively. One of those techniques is a right hand so to speak.

2.) Time management. Angler knows how to balance his time and water within confounds of a set time frame.

3.) Physical strength. This is an advantage for number 2, and also helps anglers reach water others might have not hit. Sometimes simply fishing from the opposite bank in a run, and angler has already fished, will yeild good results.

4.) Mental Strenght. This is the ability to focus, to stay confident, and have the mindset to sort through the toolbox when the going is tough and the time is ticking its final moments. It is the strength to not give up, and to keep after one more fish. Also the ability to get in a rut, and stay positive to get out of it.

5.) The ability to trust and listen to your team mates. If I tell an angler on my team a size 6 egg is working, then by god they better have some ready to fish.

6.) This should be number 2, but I dont feel like moving it around. Reading WATER! You have to be able to read water, so that your not flinging flies in unproductive spots. You need to know where those fish are going to be throughout the year, and why. Where they are going to move and why. Their biology and everything about them. It is hunting at it's core, and you must understand your prey before you can effectively become their predator.

[cucarachafly]

That is definitely some great info there, Ben! :cheers: Kinda brought back some memories of my old high schoool two-a-days!

Bret- thanks for finding and reposting the info by Paul. Very interesting read. Think I'm going to try to boil me up some curly Q's this weekend and give those a shot.

[DavyKnot]

Hey 2Fly - Lemme know what time you think you might be out there on Friday. If I can cut out early (and I almost always can), I'd love to join you at IF... That's my spot. I need tha knowledge!

[DavyKnot]

Has anyone used this "sighter"..? Is it any good? Use it in comps??

2-tone Euro Nymphing Sighter: Amazon.com: Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qEkP4yMLL.@@AMEPARAM@@41qEkP4yMLL

[RScott]

This sighter may be a good one, but it is not legal for comps. No loop connections are allowed in the leader and the leader can be mono or floro, no braids. Hi-Vis Stren, Sufix, Amnesia all make good sighter material.

[mbeam621]

This stuff, so far is the best sighter material I've found. Its a Bi-color material, that is extremely visible in all light conditions.

[benvan]

thumbs up to the umpqua, heard great things. I prefer the Jan Siman or the Cortland bi-color siter material though.

[DavyKnot]

Thanks fellas! I actually ordered the Umpqua sighter earlier today before reading this post. They also make a 10' leader that is designed to work in tandem with the sighter called the "Umpqua Red Hot Power Leader". Hopefully it's legal. They don't sell either of the products on Umpqua's website, but I found them here: http://www.bluequillangler.com/Products/Leaders-and-Tippet/Umpqua-Bi-Colored-Indicator-Tippet-Material-30-Yards#.UAtwG7T2aSo

By the way, Matt - I used your "dust mop" down here on the Hooch like I said I would and... It killed!! You're tha man! :yikes:

[Blueridgeflies]

For sighters my two favorite materials hands down would be jan simans, and amnesia. (I use amnesia for a lot of my practice sighters, or the ones I give away) If you want a really simple leader formula that works pretty well just shoot me a pm. (It will be a lot cheaper the having to keep buy store bought leaders)


Important comp tactic to learn: How to fish pocket water when you only have a few inches of visibility. Learn how to fish pocket water then go from there, but know how to do that has salvaged more then a few fishing trips.

[2fly]

Thanks fellas! I actually ordered the Umpqua sighter earlier today before reading this post. They also make a 10' leader that is designed to work in tandem with the sighter called the "Umpqua Red Hot Power Leader". Hopefully it's legal. They don't sell either of the products on Umpqua's website, but I found them here: http://www.bluequillangler.com/Products/Leaders-and-Tippet/Umpqua-Bi-Colored-Indicator-Tippet-Material-30-Yards#.UAtwG7T2aSo

By the way, Matt - I used your "dust mop" down here on the Hooch like I said I would and... It killed!! You're tha man! :yikes:

The leader is legal. I like Steve Parrott's leader setup in the 18' size. Just need to take the tippet ring out to be legal for comps.

[mbeam621]

That "dust mop" should be illegal it works so good! On the sighter subject with the red hot power taper leader, I would probably try a different route on leader selection. The Hi Vis section on those leaders is extremely long and really doesnt need any additonal sighter added. The Umpqua Indicator tippet is a money saver. You get 30 yds, instead of 30 inches of the Jan Siman, and Amnesia in my opinion is entirely too stiff.
I'll have to agree with Blueridgeflies on this, building your own leader and adding sighter just above your tippet is your best option.

[DavyKnot]

I built my own sighter with Cajun 30 lb test, and then I dyed some 40 lb test green. It works great, but I hate all of those surgeons knots... they get hung in my eyelets. I was hoping to find something pre-made that is brighter (more florescent), and all one piece to avoid the knots. What d'ya think..?

Also, has anyone tried the new Cortland competition nymph line? Any reviews??
http://www.cortlandline.com/fly/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=39&Itemid=62%22

[2fly]

I built my own sighter with Cajun 30 lb test, and then I dyed some 40 lb test green. It works great, but I hate all of those surgeons knows... they got hung in my eyelets. I was hoping to find something pre-made that is brighter (more florescent), and all one piece to avoid the knots. What d'ya think..?

Also, has anyone tried the new Cortland competition nymph line? Any reviews??
http://www.cortlandline.com/fly/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=39&Itemid=62%22

I've heard good reports on the Cortland Nymph line. You still have to use a leader with it, but it's more of a traditional taper with sighters built in. When you custom build a leader, you have to use blood knots or you will catch on your guides. Some people use knot sense to smooth it out, but I haven't had a problem with my knots catching. Did you try and use that amnesia sighter set I gave you yet?

[DavyKnot]

Not yet. I'm swapping my Orvis for a 10' 4wt :cool: but as soon as I get it back, I'll give it a whirl. Thanks again, 2Fly... Can't thank you enough! :cheers:

[Blueridgeflies]

I would definitely suggest using the amnesia. I have used it, jan semans, stren gold, and cajun red. Hands down for the cost side I like the amnesia. In way of the pound test you need for a sighter, 8lb is pretty much the most you will need. My usually sighter set up is 8lb orange, 8lb chartreuse, 6lb black. (The black helps create a clear cut off at the bottom of the sighter, and is almost invisible)

It will be good to have atleast two good rods for comps, One for your euro nymphing rigs and then the other can be for things like streamer fishing, dry dropper, and other techniques.

[trout freak]

It will be good to have atleast two good rods for comps, One for your euro nymphing rigs and then the other can be for things like streamer fishing, dry dropper, and other techniques.

Having two rods in nice, but in some cases it takes too much time to be going back and forth to retrieve your other rod. Although I usually carry two, gatorbyte told me a while back that it's better to have a leader set up for both nymphing and dry droppering. I have done this since and have done very well doing so. I can toss a streamer on a long leader too it's just not very pretty casting.

[Blueridgeflies]

I really only fish one rod ever, but it is definitely good to have a back up rod. (in case something happens to your main rod). I was mainly suggesting do that as a start for practicing. (cause it can be a bit of a rough change if you are changing from an indicator to a tight line rig that can fish pretty much any fly)

[fontinalis]

In case no one has already mentioned this, there's a nice article on Euro nymphing techniques in the April 2012 issue of Field & Stream. It has some good illustrations showing the different rigs.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/fishing/fly-fishing/where-fish/2012/03/catch-more-fish-these-4-deadly-international-n