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Supplemental Stocking Program Like No Other???

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  • #16
    http://www.bigtflyfishing.com

    Use Promo Code NGTO for 5% off

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    • #17
      I'm not a fisheries biologist, although I've stayed at holiday inn, and i have taken several classes in the subject matter.

      My thoughts:

      I know I've read stream restorations in the mountains where TU and other groups dumped limestone into SMALL streams prior to reintroducing SABT. On the small stream level (think blue lines) it is viable. On a large flow, esp like the hooch, i think there are several problems. To dump enough to chemically alter the balance of the water, it needs to be a very large amount. This can't be a couple boulders, because they don't have the surface area needed. A bunch of smaller rocks might help, but that is a BUNCH... Gravel is the easiest thing to deal with, but in most of our larger rivers, that will get spread around and slowly covered in silt, vs actually doing something in a small stream.

      Bugs. I am not sure where stocking bugs falls legally. I know in most states, stocking fish requires habitat impact surveys which take a long time, and a lot of money.
      To effetively stock bugs and have them actually stick around, the chemical/PH balance of the water would need to already be improved from where it is today- otherwise the bugs would already be there, right? So it's like a chicken and egg scenario. Maybe just improving the stream conditions alone would bring more bugs over time?

      I think the biggest issue with doing any of this in the lower hooch is irregular dam flows and temperatures. If those two variables cannot be gaurunteed, getting somebody to buy off on a big project like this is a lost cause.

      The only way to do this would be start somewhere small, and ideally a highly regulated stream that is easier to study.
      Resident Tenkara Nerd

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      • #18
        fingerlings i am doubtful about for the hooch as well. Safety in numbers may work out for them, but I feel like there are so many bigger fish in the hooch that would simply gobble them up, that's prob a large part of why they stock bigger fish.

        Again- small streams, i'm all for it. Throw fingerlings in just about any N. GA flow and it would prob be a much better deal than what they currently stock.
        Resident Tenkara Nerd

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        • #19
          I think ISO1600 has some good points. Small streams may be the best option. The Hooch has way to much variable volume for limestone to have a measurable impact. The suggestion by others to work on water quality issues on tributaries such as Suwanee and Haw Creek is a good one.

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          • #20
            There have been bigger waterways treated in both Pennsylvania and West Virginia that had larger drainage areas than the Hooch that have been successfully treated. This would not be a small undertaking within the Hooch. For implementing limestone in the hooch it would have to be in the riparian zone where the most fluctuation of flows occurs and with all sizes of limestone rip rap and gravels being used. That is part of the reason, with the irregular flows that the Hooch would be a good proving ground because everytime the water rises and falls it would stir these rocks and sediments up and would continually deposit some additional elements in the water as well as create 'island refuges' for the bugs themselves.
            I agree on how the limestone sand has been utilized on SABT streams, what if that was also instituted along the feeder creeks that flow into the Hooch? How could that over time benefit the river? If some of the major feeder streams were worked with such as Suwanee Creek or even as high up as Haw Creek it would be interesting to see.
            ISO1600, the 'Chicken & Egg' scenario referring to the bugs has me wondering if the bugs were originally there in the first place but over time due to flooding and what not, have disappeared. Similar to what happened with the Black Caddis dying off and then coming back strong this year for example. When bugs are added to the waters, especially with Caddis since they die in the stream, I would be curious to know if the volume of bugs increased also by proxy increased the available amount of calcium as their bodies are made of it. Another question parlaying off what you said; the Dam is known for having some of the slickest algae covered rocks around in the river but there are only midges and stoneflies. Caddis during the larval stage eat mainly algae. Would stocking Black Caddis at the dam assist in bug life thriving because of the algae covered rocks?
            Is bug stocking illegal? That is a great question but that is also why I specifically named the Black Caddis, Stonefly & Hellgrammites. They all are found throughout Georgia as a major source of food in both the tailwaters and freestone streams we have. The volume of the stockings would be important because they would essentially kickstart the part of the ecosystem to get to self management. The more numbers of these common bugs we could get stocked in the river, the better the short and long term returns could be.
            Stocking fingerlings has been shown to be VERY effective in freestone and tailwater streams and there are plenty of papers that support this ISO1600. I have not looked at some in awhile but if you have time, look some up and attach them here! All your points are great areas to think about on how to hone these ideas. I feel these ideas would be easier to get the public on board if we approach it from an equitable value approach. Literally meaning if we can show homeowners, HOA's and business owners how having a healthy and clean trout stream equates to added property value they would be far more likely to want to help out as it benefits their pocket books.
            I found an extremely interesting paper from Penn. St. titled 'Passive Treatment Methods for Acid Water in Pennsylvania' that has some of the best data I have seen. This mostly focuses on treating either acidified streams from poor mining practices or acid rain. We do not have that much of an issue with heavy metals and acid rain like they do, but we do have very big issues with PH and lack of mineral content which it does address. Which some of the solutions offered in this paper could address this via the passive methods they describe. The biggest factor that it shows is cost. I invite everyone to check this paper out!!!
            https://extension.psu.edu/passive-tr...n-pennsylvania
            #JBNavy

            "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
            -Chinese Proverb

            “At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.”
            -Norman Maclean

            "We are what we hunt."
            -PH

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            • #21
              May I suggest y'all take this basic suggestion to the USFS and WRD via the General Info Forum thread titled:
              "USFS Foothills Landscape Community Collaboration"


              http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/foru...d.php?t=115939


              USFS has been begging us for input to our hearts' desire regarding North GA. Get this idea on THEIR radar.

              Want to Help Ease DNR's Budget Woes? Buy a TU license Plate!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Windknot View Post
                May I suggest y'all take this basic suggestion to the USFS and WRD via the General Info Forum thread titled:
                "USFS Foothills Landscape Community Collaboration"


                http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/foru...d.php?t=115939


                USFS has been begging us for input to our hearts' desire regarding North GA. Get this idea on THEIR radar.


                +1


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Windknot View Post
                  May I suggest y'all take this basic suggestion to the USFS and WRD via the General Info Forum thread titled:
                  "USFS Foothills Landscape Community Collaboration"


                  http://www.georgia-outdoors.com/foru...d.php?t=115939


                  USFS has been begging us for input to our hearts' desire regarding North GA. Get this idea on THEIR radar.
                  Originally posted by splatek16 View Post
                  +1


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  I have gone to both the thread and the Foothills Landscape Community Collaboration page and it does not list anywhere to give opinions/feedback. Does anyone know where to do that at?
                  #JBNavy

                  "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                  -Chinese Proverb

                  “At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.”
                  -Norman Maclean

                  "We are what we hunt."
                  -PH

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I like this science and really like this idea.
                    Has anybody been able to find any published record of southeastern fishery biologists trying these things, proposing them, etc. It might be that things have be been thought about, but found to be ineffective. Just tossing that out there.
                    I haven't been able to find anything, but science rarely publishesv negative results.
                    I still think a small stream experiments would be neat to watch unfold


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                    • #25
                      I believe Missouri and Arkansas have done bug stocking in their tailwaters.

                      You might check. Ga biologists might have done bug stocking years ago.

                      The Hooch has been managed for trout since the 1960s

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by trout1980 View Post
                        I believe Missouri and Arkansas have done bug stocking in their tailwaters.

                        You might check. Ga biologists might have done bug stocking years ago.

                        The Hooch has been managed for trout since the 1960s
                        The Hooch started as a trout fishery because the original fishermen who lived here stocked it with $5,000 worth of trout with their own money in 1962. It is a great story! There is no evidence online that bug stockings were done in Georgia nor was there a need to as we had naturally occurring hatches that have gone away unfortunately. As far as who might know the history on if any bug stockings had occurred would be @Windknot or @TheEG.
                        I recently learned that near some of the water treatment facilities on the river before they were repaired used to house tons of bugs but were localized only to those areas. I wonder if there is a way to tie in the use of some of that refuse to help fuel bug growth but not on such a localized scale? Just a thought that would be great to have some feedback on...
                        #JBNavy

                        "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                        -Chinese Proverb

                        “At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.”
                        -Norman Maclean

                        "We are what we hunt."
                        -PH

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          And I just found this great read from the Colorado TU' chapters on a 'Landowners Guide to Stream Restoration'. Let me know what y'all think!
                          http://ourcoriver.com/wp-content/upl...eb_version.pdf
                          #JBNavy

                          "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                          -Chinese Proverb

                          “At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.”
                          -Norman Maclean

                          "We are what we hunt."
                          -PH

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Philhutch80 View Post
                            There is no evidence online that bug stockings were done in Georgia nor was there a need to as we had naturally occurring hatches that have gone away unfortunately.
                            Chris Scalley (River Through Atlanta) did years and years of research on aquatic insects and arthropods in the Chattahoochee River. He made a fine presentation regarding his study and research at the Island Ford CRNRA HQ about four years ago. It might not hurt to shoot him an inquiry regarding his study via e-mail through the RTA website. It was extremely thorough and exhaustive. He covered all the bases.
                            If you have difficulty understanding the post above, read it out loud and it should make sense. This NGTO member is known for his poor hill-billy upbringing and his affinity for all things from Louisiana (particularly if it relates to LSU). It makes for a poor mix of accents and much difficulty in translation. He was doing well for so long, but now seems to have regressed.

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                            • #29
                              Swamp - Thanks for your recommendation to contact someone intimately familiar with the question at hand..At some point we may need to rely on history lessons, before we try to reinvent the wheel..I will be curious to hear Chris' thoughts on this..
                              Tight lines!!

                              Doc

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                              • #30
                                In Days of Old, When Anglers were Bold

                                I have no knowledge of bug stocking on the Hooch.


                                I DO have knowledge of fishing the Hooch in the early 70's. WRD stocked fingerling trout from Morgan Falls downstream. That section of water was the greatest trout fishing I ever experienced.


                                Buford Dam was completed in 1956. In the early 70's you could still see clearly were the tree stumps were. Moss would have rooted upstream and alongside, but the downstream side was sandy, and the back side of the stumps were clearly seen. There was little development along the river then, and water quality and quantity were ideal year round.


                                In those days I often took trout home, to impress my parents and girlfriends with my simple cooking. The stomach contents of EVERY trout contained crawfish pinchers. Every one. No exceptions. There were nymphs, to be sure, but the pinchers were in every fish.


                                In those days of ultralight spinning, we would hammer the shady shoreline. Any wood...even a single stick..would harbor trout, usually browns. Every float trip resulted in several browns of 8-10 pounds coming to the raft. They were like footballs. I can remember jumps that went higher than my eye level at 3+ feet above the surface.


                                I saw ONE shoal bass caught. I caught an 8lb largemouth bass opposite the mouth of Sope Creek.



                                Time passed. Roads and subdivisions went in. Summer thunderboomers sent hot water straight into the river. Fishing suffered. Now, it's delayed harvest.

                                Want to Help Ease DNR's Budget Woes? Buy a TU license Plate!

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