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The Hooch

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TPerrie View Post
    Creel limit on Browns (can only keep 9-16 inches), stock fingerlings, catch and release only section from Jones to medlock... I'd love to see what happened.
    Id love to see this, or even some sort of seasonal regs. Itll never happen and folks will not abide. Almost every time Im at medlock someone is fishing with non-artificial.
    We are the music-makers,
    And we are the dreamers of dreams,
    Wandering by lone sea-breakers
    And sitting by desolate streams;
    World losers and world forsakers,
    On whom the pale moon gleams.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by browniez View Post
      Isn't it wacky?

      I was talking to Durniak and Snellings at a kids stocking event one day, very interesting conversation.

      The summary was that we don't entirely know the population dynamics, but that the reproductive and population study from 2011 is the best we have.

      They were of the opinion that the current from the sampling either couldn't knock out some of the bigger fish to sample, or that they are so spooky you can't get to them (I think the latter).

      What does it say about you and I's level of insanity chasing giants that only 1 of 100 browns in the population exceeds 17 inches? I wonder what the percentage of two footers? 1 in 10,000?

      Part of me thinks once they hit about 22 they just grow so **** fast. Our big browns tend to be obese.
      I think that if we stocked fingerling rainbows one year instead of stockers, we'd see a huge boom in the quality of the browns. Provide a food source, take away a year of stocked competition for food, and even the fingerlings that survived would grow much more rapidly. But until that happens, I'm just gonna chase that 1 in 10,000 hahaha

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by browniez View Post
        Isn't it wacky?

        I was talking to Durniak and Snellings at a kids stocking event one day, very interesting conversation.

        The summary was that we don't entirely know the population dynamics, but that the reproductive and population study from 2011 is the best we have.

        They were of the opinion that the current from the sampling either couldn't knock out some of the bigger fish to sample, or that they are so spooky you can't get to them (I think the latter).

        What does it say about you and I's level of insanity chasing giants that only 1 of 100 browns in the population exceeds 17 inches? I wonder what the percentage of two footers? 1 in 10,000?

        Part of me thinks once they hit about 22 they just grow so **** fast. Our big browns tend to be obese.
        I'm not a fish biologist, but those data would confirm a hypothesis I have had (just from lurking around here/NGTO) that the browns experience a great deal of phenotypic plasticity and are subject (possibly) to a strong frequency dependent selection. I forget the name of the gene that's been shown to be associated with large size in a the European Brwn Trt study, but given the common ancestry of these little critters I would assume it'd be of similar loci.

        I also find (again limited by only doing this for a year or so) that region / section (whatever it's called) produces differently for me. I'll have to have a read more on tailwaters and tailwater fisheries, but seems like just a few (10+) miles of river are different, in some way. For example, an angler recently told me that the wadability, due to slickness of undergrowth and vegetation is easier at a one location, but not at another; these two locations are separated by maybe 5 miles... and a reasonably short drive. In my own experience (again, limited) I've caught more fish at the one location, but only had a few experiences with bigger fish; while just a few miles away I'll catch a few less fish, but on average they are bigger. I don't think that fish populations are that variant in these two stretches of water such that they can get bigger in one section because there are less of them, but probably due to some other environmental factor driving foraging, edibles, etc.

        Ugh, stop getting me to think science-y about fish!

        Originally posted by GoutUnlimited View Post
        Id love to see this, or even some sort of seasonal regs. Itll never happen and folks will not abide. Almost every time Im at medlock someone is fishing with non-artificial.
        @Gout: I tend to agree that folks won't abide. But are there data around, somewhere, probably for another fishery that even a small adherence can produce a large result. I know, for example, in some land mammals that were over hunted nearing loss, when regs went up we can expect that EVERYONE stopped hunting, but some did and populations returned. I wonder if less is more in this case? Just armchairing now with zero data!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by TPerrie View Post
          I think that if we stocked fingerling rainbows one year instead of stockers, we'd see a huge boom in the quality of the browns. Provide a food source, take away a year of stocked competition for food, and even the fingerlings that survived would grow much more rapidly. But until that happens, I'm just gonna chase that 1 in 10,000 hahaha
          We did that about 2 years ago. I vividly remember having a long discussion with Chris Scalley about it as we watched DNR dump tons in at the McGInnis ramp.

          I remember that year they were playing with larger stockers and fingerlings. Produced a boom in my opinion.
          I like em big fat and sloppy.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by huntfish View Post
            The edges aren't creating that big of an issue vs. the run on into the river during rain events. Start observing the water during discharges without rain....then compare it to rain events without discharges.....
            I agree and disagree with you there huntfish. Due to the proximity to the dam proper the amount of feeders are pretty minimal and do provide some silt impact but not nearly as much as what starts dumping in from Suwanee creek southward. From there south the silt impact adds up at an exponential rate the further you get away from the dam as well as the rate of scour reduces which provides more slow water channels.
            If the edges are not creating that big of an issue then why do we have sections of the river that look like gorges or canyons in the section closest to the dam? Why is the rate of scour so much higher there than further downstream? I have no doubt that again proximity to the dam aids in the amount of scour exponentially due to the energy associated with the pulse of water from generation. Plus it is like time itself is not being taken into account as I doubt the current river level near the dam is anywhere near the original elevation of the river level in say 1962 when trout were stocked for example.
            #JBNavy

            "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
            -Chinese Proverb

            At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.
            -Norman Maclean

            "We are what we hunt."
            -PH

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Philhutch80 View Post
              I agree and disagree with you there huntfish. Due to the proximity to the dam proper the amount of feeders are pretty minimal and do provide some silt impact but not nearly as much as what starts dumping in from Suwanee creek southward. From there south the silt impact adds up at an exponential rate the further you get away from the dam as well as the rate of scour reduces which provides more slow water channels.
              If the edges are not creating that big of an issue then why do we have sections of the river that look like gorges or canyons in the section closest to the dam? Why is the rate of scour so much higher there than further downstream? I have no doubt that again proximity to the dam aids in the amount of scour exponentially due to the energy associated with the pulse of water from generation. Plus it is like time itself is not being taken into account as I doubt the current river level near the dam is anywhere near the original elevation of the river level in say 1962 when trout were stocked for example.
              You are proving my point. As you move further downstream you are getting an additive effect of erosion issues form run on sources. The gorges or canyons are the result of water rushing into the river or getting trapped and creating current eddies. Freshly disturbed dirt erodes and creates silt at an exponential rate when compared to sealed soils, The edges of the river are basically compressed and sealed by the water over time, Henceforth, they don't erode rapidly.


              As for the river elevation near the dam. The outfall from the dam hasn't changed elevation, so as long as water flow was compariable to 1962, the elevation should be relatively close.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by huntfish View Post
                You are proving my point. As you move further downstream you are getting an additive effect of erosion issues form run on sources. The gorges or canyons are the result of water rushing into the river or getting trapped and creating current eddies. Freshly disturbed dirt erodes and creates silt at an exponential rate when compared to sealed soils, The edges of the river are basically compressed and sealed by the water over time, Henceforth, they don't erode rapidly.


                As for the river elevation near the dam. The outfall from the dam hasn't changed elevation, so as long as water flow was compariable to 1962, the elevation should be relatively close.
                Yes but again the run on source factor is not the source of the canyons or gorges. That is a direct result from the releases over time. I understand what you are saying about sealed souls but that is from looking down from a sky point of view. The real issue the hydrodynamic forces attacking the banks from the sides rather from the top or bottom. Proof in that would be all the down timber which is constantly being added along the banks. This would negate the sealed souls at that time because they are constantly being disturbed from a different angle of attack. What would be helpful but I doubt exist would be photos of the lower bowmans unit for example for over the passage of time to see if there have been noticeable changes.
                #JBNavy

                "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                -Chinese Proverb

                At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.
                -Norman Maclean

                "We are what we hunt."
                -PH

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Philhutch80 View Post
                  Yes but again the run on source factor is not the source of the canyons or gorges. That is a direct result from the releases over time. I understand what you are saying about sealed souls but that is from looking down from a sky point of view. The real issue the hydrodynamic forces attacking the banks from the sides rather from the top or bottom. Proof in that would be all the down timber which is constantly being added along the banks. This would negate the sealed souls at that time because they are constantly being disturbed from a different angle of attack. What would be helpful but I doubt exist would be photos of the lower bowmans unit for example for over the passage of time to see if there have been noticeable changes.
                  Google earth, click the date in the bottom left and you can scroll through archived satellite photos.
                  -skunked

                  Warning: all posts should be assumed to contain sarcasm and misinformation unless stated otherwise. The opinions shared are not necessarily those of the poster.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by I_got_skunked View Post
                    Google earth, click the date in the bottom left and you can scroll through archived satellite photos.
                    Very good point! Thanks for the reminder. That would definitely help from one perspective. Im talking about if pics were taken at the same place over time. Like at the Hwy. 20 bridge for example looking upstream.
                    #JBNavy

                    "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                    -Chinese Proverb

                    At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.
                    -Norman Maclean

                    "We are what we hunt."
                    -PH

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Philhutch80 View Post
                      Yes but again the run on source factor is not the source of the canyons or gorges. That is a direct result from the releases over time. I understand what you are saying about sealed souls but that is from looking down from a sky point of view. The real issue the hydrodynamic forces attacking the banks from the sides rather from the top or bottom. Proof in that would be all the down timber which is constantly being added along the banks. This would negate the sealed souls at that time because they are constantly being disturbed from a different angle of attack. What would be helpful but I doubt exist would be photos of the lower bowmans unit for example for over the passage of time to see if there have been noticeable changes.
                      First, a river is dynamic and changes occur, on every river. Width, flow and stream beds change. Now getting back to the main issue, siltation which also affects O2 and temperature.

                      Observation is the key to any science experiment or study,. During discharges, you don't see the river turning into a mud bath. However, during rains, it becomes a mud bath. Wonder where that mud color is coming from? It's not the river edges.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by huntfish View Post
                        First, a river is dynamic and changes occur, on every river. Width, flow and stream beds change. Now getting back to the main issue, siltation which also affects O2 and temperature.

                        Observation is the key to any science experiment or study,. During discharges, you don't see the river turning into a mud bath. However, during rains, it becomes a mud bath. Wonder where that mud color is coming from? It's not the river edges.
                        Thus why fishing on the backside of a 127 release is my favoright.

                        Can see em come from 10 feet down and 20 feet off slashing at it 4 times before I screw up and pull it away from em in the gin clear What-uzz
                        I like em big fat and sloppy.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by huntfish View Post
                          First, a river is dynamic and changes occur, on every river. Width, flow and stream beds change. Now getting back to the main issue, siltation which also affects O2 and temperature.

                          Observation is the key to any science experiment or study,. During discharges, you don't see the river turning into a mud bath. However, during rains, it becomes a mud bath. Wonder where that mud color is coming from? It's not the river edges.
                          Observation is the key. What has been observed is that until you get to a feeder stream the size of Suwanee creek THEN discharge factors from silt runoff start to affect the river below the creek inlet. Above Suwanee creek there are no major feeders of the Suwanees magnitude to add silt in that particular part of the river so how did the channel cut the way that it has and in what time period is one question.
                          The other is regarding these feeder creeks that inflow during rain with silt, what would you do to counteract that issue huntfish?
                          Also, during high releases I have seen along the leading edge of the pulse that the water within 3-6ft of the bank does become discolored this adding silt into the river but because of the increased flow rate it gets flushed more quickly than is noticed.
                          #JBNavy

                          "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                          -Chinese Proverb

                          At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.
                          -Norman Maclean

                          "We are what we hunt."
                          -PH

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by browniez View Post
                            Thus why fishing on the backside of a 127 release is my favoright.

                            Can see em come from 10 feet down and 20 feet off slashing at it 4 times before I screw up and pull it away from em in the gin clear What-uzz
                            They still do those releases, lol?!?!?! Hopefully this summer will be warm enough to warrant the need to generate like that. 2016 was a fun intro into that!
                            #JBNavy

                            "Everyday is a new life to a wise man."
                            -Chinese Proverb

                            At sunrise everything is luminous but not clear.
                            -Norman Maclean

                            "We are what we hunt."
                            -PH

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Philhutch80 View Post
                              Observation is the key. What has been observed is that until you get to a feeder stream the size of Suwanee creek THEN discharge factors from silt runoff start to affect the river below the creek inlet. Above Suwanee creek there are no major feeders of the Suwanees magnitude to add silt in that particular part of the river so how did the channel cut the way that it has and in what time period is one question.
                              The other is regarding these feeder creeks that inflow during rain with silt, what would you do to counteract that issue huntfish?
                              Also, during high releases I have seen along the leading edge of the pulse that the water within 3-6ft of the bank does become discolored this adding silt into the river but because of the increased flow rate it gets flushed more quickly than is noticed.
                              A simple log can change river dynamics. Droppimg the mic on this

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by browniez View Post
                                Thus why fishing on the backside of a 127 release is my favoright.

                                Can see em come from 10 feet down and 20 feet off slashing at it 4 times before I screw up and pull it away from em in the gin clear What-uzz
                                Sight fishing on clear falling water can be hazardous to your health sometimes. Reminds me of Pike fishing and seeing that big mouth open up. Hard not to jerk away

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