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Old 10-28-17, 10:44 AM   #1
Mr Brown
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Default Salmo trutta / von Behr vs Loch leven (& male vs felmale).

Pulled down my dads (Dan Holland's) Trout Fishermans Bible off of the shelf (1949,1962,1979). Describes genesis of all our favorite's salmo trutta being two different strains from Germany. Originally, von Behr being east coast and loch leven being west coast. After all these years, are these two now the same species thru interbreeding or, can you actually tell one from the other? And, I am speaking about the Chattahoochee specifically.

And, as a sidenote, anyone have an easy way to tell male from female?

Tks Guys - luv yall !

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Old 10-29-17, 10:45 AM   #2
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In regards to your question, it sounds as if that book is mostly incorrect. I highly suggest just googling brown trout or Salmo Trutta and you will get much more truthful information regarding the phenotypes of Brown trout.
From the research I have seen and done myself there appears to be a handful of phenotypes- Gillowee, Old German Brown, Seeforellen and Loch Leven that I have found to have been sent to this country. For Georgia and specifically the Chattahoochee River tailwaters from the research I’ve seen it appears that the Chattahoochee browns originated from the Wallhalla hatchery in a comparative stocking of two phenotypes of browns. The ones present in the river today are not stocked and reproduce naturally. I believe they originated from the Gillowee strain but have found it difficult to confirm this.
The browns stocked in the remaining trout waters of Georgia are more in common with the Loch Leven or Old German Brown as they are the same fish supplied and stocked nationally by the federal government stocking programs. Again this is just from reading and hearsay from other members who are far more versed than I in the matters. I hope this helps!

Last edited by Swamp Angel; 11-01-17 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 10-29-17, 02:50 PM   #3
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I was one that viewed and didnít reply as I donít have a clue, probably like most members. Not sure how many folks would have responded with an ďI donít knowĒ reply
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Old 10-29-17, 03:01 PM   #4
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For the record, I do not know the answer to OP's question. I don't know who is banging who, but clearly brown trout are having sex in the Hooch!



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Last edited by Swamp Angel; 11-01-17 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 10-30-17, 01:03 AM   #5
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I cannot find Gillowee strain of Salmo trutta in the scientific literature. Perhaps you meant Gillaroo? This is the snail-eating trout from Lough Melvin in Ireland. There is a Wikipedia article on the Gillaroo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillaroo

I quote: "The name gillaroo is derived from the Irish for "red fellow" (giolla rua); this is due to the fish's distinctive colouring. It has a bright, buttery golden colour in its flanks with bright crimson and vermilion spots. The gillaroo is characterised by these deep red spots and a "gizzard", which is used to aid the digestion of hard food items such as water snails."

Is this a valid description of the Chattahoochee brown trout? They certainly have a reddish appearance. Has anyone ever looked at the digestive tract of these fish?

A search of the scientific literature indicates that Andrew Ferguson (1991, 2003) considers the Gillaroo to be a distinct species, Salmo stomachicus, reproductively isolated from other populations of Salmo in Ireland (and Lough Melvin).

If true, the trout in the Chattahoochee may not even be brown trout. Then again, other scientists may have different ideas. Taxonomists fall into their own taxonomic groups: lumpers and splitters. Dr. Ferguson may be a splitter. Evidence of reproductive isolation between trout populations in Lough Melvin would support the unique species designation.

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Old 10-30-17, 01:14 AM   #6
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Here is the abstract to Andrew Ferguson's first 1991 paper on the trout of Lough Melvin. Here he describes them as distinct subspecies.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...595.x/abstract

By 2004, he is calling them distinct species.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/20500223

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Old 10-30-17, 05:46 AM   #7
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Here is my two cents. Chattahoochee brown trout are some of the prettiest in the world. At the dam they eat midges. Big ones are hard to catch. I hope people let them go to grow bigger.
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Old 10-30-17, 08:51 AM   #8
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My two cents: it takes relatively few generations for genetic drift (The random accumulation of non lethal mutations) to produce reproductive isolation, ie speciation. Here, in the hooch browns it is due to geographic reasons: cross breeding is impossible.

The lineage then, I would think would have to be done genetically, like a brown trout ancestry.com

It's an interesting question, one of lineage, but I also agree with T, they're really pretty, hard fighting, fun to catch fish.


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Old 10-30-17, 09:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatek16 View Post
My two cents: it takes relatively few generations for genetic drift (The random accumulation of non lethal mutations) to produce reproductive isolation, ie speciation. Here, in the hooch browns it is due to geographic reasons: cross breeding is impossible.

The lineage then, I would think would have to be done genetically, like a brown trout ancestry.com
Speciation via genetic drift is rare. The 500+ species of fruit flies in Hawaii "may" be an example. But it doesn't take very much natural selection or gene flow to offset the effects of drift. Fisheries managers are wise to the detrimental effects of inbreeding, so I would guess that more than one strain of brown trout has been mixed together along the way. Nevertheless, there would have been some drift (founder effect) when the first brown trout were introduced into the United States. So, figure on drift, followed by mixing of genotypes, and then natural selection in the Chattahoochee River for several generations, sculpting a gene pool adapted to the river.

A DNA analysis would be nice and might settle some of the questions.

Whatever they are, they are beautiful fish.

John
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Old 10-30-17, 09:51 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgraham140 View Post
Speciation via genetic drift is rare. The 500+ species of fruit flies in Hawaii "may" be an example. But it doesn't take very much natural selection or gene flow to offset the effects of drift. Fisheries managers are wise to the detrimental effects of inbreeding, so I would guess that more than one strain of brown trout has been mixed together along the way. Nevertheless, there would have been some drift (founder effect) when the first brown trout were introduced into the United States. So, figure on drift, followed by mixing of genotypes, and then natural selection in the Chattahoochee River for several generations, sculpting a gene pool adapted to the river.

A DNA analysis would be nice and might settle some of the questions.

Whatever they are, they are beautiful fish.

John

I concur, completely. One instance of migration (introduction of a new strain) can and has offset several generations of accumulated mutations via drift. That has always amazed me. And yes, natty select on the river has had to take place over the 15 odd years they've been reproducing. It'd be interesting to speculate, even more interesting to see the data showing what genes (processes) have adapted to a naturally reproducing tailwater brown that is subject to all sorts of non-natural processes. It might be those adaptations that make those fish particularly finicky and more exciting to catch. I am sure there is literature on the effects of turnover water release on the adaptation of fish/trout, but I would need to do a search for that. Not being a fisheries biologist, I am not even sure I would fully comprehend that stuff anyhow.

I've also wondered about local adaptations across the 10s of miles of the hooch. It has always seemed to me, for example that the fish from one section look a little different than the fish miles away and while I've not kayaked the river, there might be some small barriers precluding drastic movements. I hate that I always think science-y when I ought to just GO FISH....
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