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Old 12-18-17, 12:55 PM   #11
Philhutch80
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Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Really? You're crapping on the Hooch? The same Hooch that recently kicked out a couple of pretty nice fish for you, that you hold up when you need some trout cred?

The Chattahoochee River. Love it or leave it.

FM
Dude just stop. Seriously. I am allowed to have an opinion, how you interpret said opinion is in your own jaded view I cannot control. I never crapped on the river at all. As Dylar said it is a shadow of it's former self and that is what I pointed out. If you cannot admit that the river has changed and declined through a course of events and time from the 80's to now then you truly have some self serving blinders on. So do yourself a favor and 'grow a pear' and take the blinders off. I never crapped on the river or the DNR folks who manage the river, just the plan being used for management because it is one with very little monetary or public support compared to what is needed. Stories like this show where grassroots groups ( LIKE NGTO!!!) can and do make a difference, yet it is more important for you to knock me for my excitement for that? Come on man.
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Old 12-18-17, 01:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Really? You're crapping on the Hooch? The same Hooch that recently kicked out a couple of pretty nice fish for you, that you hold up when you need some trout cred?

The Chattahoochee River. Love it or leave it.

FM
Hold my beer.

Gotta agree to a degree here. As often as we disagree someone should probably screenshot this.

Just leave the the flipping DH alone. Let people have their fun.

Do we really want it gone? Think of all the wonderful, thought provoking arguments we wouldn't get to have. It's there to tickle a few peoples fancy and supplement the feed of the convicts.

The blue ribbon designation is irretrievable.

Poor urban planning, impervious paving, and thermal pollution have wrecked it. Some fools released smallmouth and spots there, introducing genetics that have assured we will never have pure shoal bass (the natives) there again. There are stocked fish that only very, very, very rarely (if ever) would be found this far up from the Gulf that are the apex predators. Chemical and other types have run off to the point we can't even eat things from it.

How about we go with the lower cost option of utilizing the outstanding forage base to try to redeem it as a bass fishery that was once there? As this would actually operate within the parameters of the temps and the state of Morgan Falls.

Many of the factors that led to the demise of the fishery WILL NOT AND CANNOT BE CHANGED!

Impervious surfaces and thermal pollution?
Atlanta can't fix a friggin pothole. Good luck getting them to repave everything. This is also completely ignoring the traffic nightmare that would grip our city for a decade.

Siltation and the like?
It's not feasible to stop the growth of the suburban area, and no trout is going to get in the way of that. Even if BMP's are followed, Cajun hops in the TracHoe at a major site and knocks out the check dam in the rainstorm and your whole Erosion Control plan is screwed.

Georgia Power and Atlanta Breaking/Dredging MF?
Georgia Power cannot even get my bill right.

Also if you know the cost associated with the straightforward sitework of a small commercial building, you know how astronomically high even attempting to develop a program to attempt to take a stab at it would be.

"Dear GA Power Customers. We are jacking your rates up by 30% to cover silt removal in Bull Sluice. We know you understand" Think of how that would play with the populace?


Look I am on a soapbox here, but it basically boils down to fisherman are a fractional minority of the population, and trout fisherman (In GA) are a fractional, fractional minority of the aforementioned minority. I challenge you to make a decision with your clientele at your place of business to serve .2% of the clientele at cost to the other 99.8%. Not good business.

Do I want it managed better? Absolutely.

Am I realistic that the river below MF is a genetic soup, with huge problems, and a huge forage base that will never be able to support a cold water year round trout fishery again? Absolutely.

Do I think we should pretty much turn all management efforts and resources for trout from below MF to the upper section to try to place a priority of a trophy brown fishery? Absolutely.

Am I 100% sure that the average size, condition, numbers, forage, and young of the year survey for the TailWater agreed that the browns are in the best shape in a decade or two? Absolutely


The Hooch seems to be a good enough place for me to wrangle Brown Trout of dang near mythical size on a fairly regular basis so I am fine with it.
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Old 12-18-17, 11:42 PM   #13
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@huntfish, I see you are just trying to incite something for no reason. Wanna clue us in as to why please?
How so? You complain about the hooch and mismanagement. Seems highlight of the articles is seeing folks in a urban setting catching quality wild trout, You have that on the Hooch. Removing Morgan Falls is not going to increase the DH success. The water temps just aren't available for a viable trout habitat and that's true for most DH waters in GA. DH didn't come about in GA to create better habitat, it's there to create recreation and fishing opportunities. The hooch is a great fisheries. Enjoy what you have
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Old 12-19-17, 09:55 AM   #14
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I donít know if the changes are due to mismanagement, or, more likely, just the inevitable result of growth and "human progress".

But I do know there were magical evenings back in the 80ís when I could slip away from work on late spring evenings to Cochran shoals, and cast to (& catch) beautiful healthy 16-18Ē trout rising to the river surface thick with caddis.

Makes me smile thinking about it.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:54 AM   #15
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My late father-in-law was an Atlanta native and lived his entire life there. He was born about 1910 on the spot where second base was in the old Fulton County stadium. Atlanta that year was about the size of Asheville now, roughly 100,000 and the Chattahoochee was a flow of sludge and other nasty stuff due to inflows of raw sewage, industrial effluent, and slaughter houses along the river. Think a city of 100,000 cannot pollute a river the size of the Chattahoochee? Asheville came close to accomplishing this before the city woke up and cleaned up.

The 'Hootch is both a contributor to, and victim of, growth in the Atlanta metro. And mostly unfettered growth as growth is generally seen as good business. Among other things this also leads to water shortages in hot dry summers and it looks like those will continue. Lanier is not the source of Atlanta's water, the actual source is the 'Hootch and the flows in the river will be driven by city thirst, not the fish or any other life form in the river.

Someone already pointed out the encroachment of lawns and asphalt impacting the river and the odds of that being reversed are to all practical purposes, zero. Atlanta metro does not have the political will to protect the river other than to look pretty out the glass walls of riverside mansions and water running when they turn the faucet. So you can pretty much forget any trout in any stretch of the 'Hootch where they do not already thrive.

But what can be accomplished is zealous protection of the status quo! If you do not, then those stretches of water where the trout thrive now will also be gone. Combined, all the conservation organizations have a strong voice - consider the impact the Camo Coalition has displayed in the past. Gather to discuss what can be preserved and create a master conservation plan. The Riverkeeper has excellent skills creating large scale planning. Calculate the cost of loss of this water to the local economy and keep in mind it's not just fish! Those folks with the mansions along the river do not want to look out and see mud flats and have to close their windows due to the stench. And while it may sound counterproductive, talk with the construction companies and point out that without the preservation of clean water there will be no drinkable water leading to no growth and no construction money.

Finally, keep a close eye on Washington DC. The current administration has already reduced federal land holdings via National Monument reductions and they could reduce federal land control in other areas like the lands bordering the 'Hootch. A few whispers in the right ears, a nice campaign contribution (remember no limits on those anymore) and the feds decide to "return to the state" lands along the 'Hooch for the state government to control. But lack of interest in trout coupled with a few more whispers and donations and state government announces they are selling that land to make up budget shortfalls.

Right now it is still your river and your choices. I recommend the beginning of a focused effort on preservation.
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Old 12-19-17, 04:52 PM   #16
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Finally, keep a close eye on Washington DC. The current administration has already reduced federal land holdings via National Monument reductions
Not to get political, but I have to correct this misinformation I see frequently.

Not a single square foot of federal land was "reduced", sold or given away by this act. Just a reduction in the restrictions that could be applied for use of the lands: yes, allowing the possibility of mineral extraction and grazing, but also bike riding, hunting and even fishing.
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Old 12-20-17, 07:01 AM   #17
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Not to get political, but I have to correct this misinformation I see frequently.

Not a single square foot of federal land was "reduced", sold or given away by this act. Just a reduction in the restrictions that could be applied for use of the lands: yes, allowing the possibility of mineral extraction and grazing, but also bike riding, hunting and even fishing.
Thank you.
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Old 12-20-17, 07:20 AM   #18
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How so? You complain about the hooch and mismanagement. Seems highlight of the articles is seeing folks in a urban setting catching quality wild trout, You have that on the Hooch. Removing Morgan Falls is not going to increase the DH success. The water temps just aren't available for a viable trout habitat and that's true for most DH waters in GA. DH didn't come about in GA to create better habitat, it's there to create recreation and fishing opportunities. The hooch is a great fisheries. Enjoy what you have
I donít want to remove Morgan Falls as thatís unrealistic. Itís something we have to live with. Saying that, you cannot deny that better care could be taken of that part of the river. You have a quality fishery in parts that with some effort could be turned into a trophy stream(for trout, striper and shoal bass). Water temps arenít viable because of thermal pollution along with siltation/ sedimentation. Currently there is no plan in place to help the siltation issue. How is that helping the DH for example? How many caddis hatches are seen in the DH now? The amount of potential available bio mass is better in the DH than the upper section but we have zero significant hatches now that formerly were abundant.
I enjoy what We have but am frustrated by the degradation that has occurred in 33yrs of fishing the river. I am allowed to voice that opinion but Iím not gonna say something without a plan of action or recourse for thinking about that first.
The article talks about catching trout in not only an urban environment but specifically through downtown Denver in an area that was thought of similarly as our DH is now; that trout cannot survive there. The local fishermen took the onus onto themselves to become the change for the river. Would I like to see the lower part of the river back as a trout stream? Juryís out as thereís not enough science out there to go one way or another whether that is possible despite what everyone says on here.
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Old 12-20-17, 07:36 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by fishndoc View Post
I donít know if the changes are due to mismanagement, or, more likely, just the inevitable result of growth and "human progress".

But I do know there were magical evenings back in the 80ís when I could slip away from work on late spring evenings to Cochran shoals, and cast to (& catch) beautiful healthy 16-18Ē trout rising to the river surface thick with caddis.

Makes me smile thinking about it.
^^^^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE!!! @fishndoc you nailed it! 16-18Ē browns, bows and brookies that were healthy and vibrant!!! I have been trying to look online in the AJC archives, the old Roswell Neighbor and Marietta Daily Journal archives- I canít seem to find ANY articles about the Hooch from the 80ís or 90ís. I would love to be able to find those articles and pics from the newspapers as well as magazines that would wax poetic about the Chattahoochee and post them here so people could at least see what this river was capable of as I feel there is very little documented history available to any of us.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNKIES View Post
My late father-in-law was an Atlanta native and lived his entire life there. He was born about 1910 on the spot where second base was in the old Fulton County stadium. Atlanta that year was about the size of Asheville now, roughly 100,000 and the Chattahoochee was a flow of sludge and other nasty stuff due to inflows of raw sewage, industrial effluent, and slaughter houses along the river. Think a city of 100,000 cannot pollute a river the size of the Chattahoochee? Asheville came close to accomplishing this before the city woke up and cleaned up.

The 'Hootch is both a contributor to, and victim of, growth in the Atlanta metro. And mostly unfettered growth as growth is generally seen as good business. Among other things this also leads to water shortages in hot dry summers and it looks like those will continue. Lanier is not the source of Atlanta's water, the actual source is the 'Hootch and the flows in the river will be driven by city thirst, not the fish or any other life form in the river.

Someone already pointed out the encroachment of lawns and asphalt impacting the river and the odds of that being reversed are to all practical purposes, zero. Atlanta metro does not have the political will to protect the river other than to look pretty out the glass walls of riverside mansions and water running when they turn the faucet. So you can pretty much forget any trout in any stretch of the 'Hootch where they do not already thrive.

But what can be accomplished is zealous protection of the status quo! If you do not, then those stretches of water where the trout thrive now will also be gone. Combined, all the conservation organizations have a strong voice - consider the impact the Camo Coalition has displayed in the past. Gather to discuss what can be preserved and create a master conservation plan. The Riverkeeper has excellent skills creating large scale planning. Calculate the cost of loss of this water to the local economy and keep in mind it's not just fish! Those folks with the mansions along the river do not want to look out and see mud flats and have to close their windows due to the stench. And while it may sound counterproductive, talk with the construction companies and point out that without the preservation of clean water there will be no drinkable water leading to no growth and no construction money.

Finally, keep a close eye on Washington DC. The current administration has already reduced federal land holdings via National Monument reductions and they could reduce federal land control in other areas like the lands bordering the 'Hootch. A few whispers in the right ears, a nice campaign contribution (remember no limits on those anymore) and the feds decide to "return to the state" lands along the 'Hooch for the state government to control. But lack of interest in trout coupled with a few more whispers and donations and state government announces they are selling that land to make up budget shortfalls.

Right now it is still your river and your choices. I recommend the beginning of a focused effort on preservation.
Nailed it!!! That makes sense also as with so many conservation groups our collective voices get lost in the mix. Sounds like coming up with a cohesive plan and presenting it to other conservation groups and then upwardly presenting it (after building some momentum from talking to other local groups) to the Riverkeeper is the way to go.
Proactive > reactive!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishndoc View Post
Not to get political, but I have to correct this misinformation I see frequently.

Not a single square foot of federal land was "reduced", sold or given away by this act. Just a reduction in the restrictions that could be applied for use of the lands: yes, allowing the possibility of mineral extraction and grazing, but also bike riding, hunting and even fishing.
Again good clarification on wording. Though the folks that are near and dear in Utah are pretty upset about what has happened. Hereís the example they gave: what if you had a yearly camping trip planned and when you show up, itís fenced off and no longer allows public access because of drilling or mining??? Yup, that is already happening.
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Old 12-20-17, 09:34 AM   #20
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Thumbs up Federal Land

Thanks for the corrections pointing out that no federal land acreage was reduced, just the classification of allowable uses for that land.
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