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Old 02-02-18, 01:37 PM   #41
splatek16
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I'm just arm chairing here, between classes....

I have a feeling Durniak would be writhing in pain at the thought of bucket biologists "stocking" under a full moon... (he's told me that in not so many words).

I wonder if I missed the operational definition of secondary vs. primary streams. I know the OP posted about specific "secondary" streams, but apart from that. If we are talking about Brook trout, sure there need to be some elevation, pH, etc things to think about and I think this is where some science needs to step in. But I was also wondering about so called "fishless" streams/creeks. I've spoken to a few rangers that have told me that electroshocking studies have demonstrated that "x" stream is "fishless." I am always surprised when I hear this, particularly when I am catching fish on another stream in the same wilderness area with what appear, at face value like similar stream habitat and what not. I also wonder about the challenge of producing increased wild brown trout streams. Assume this was something that was going to actually happen and a set of streams were deemed uninhabitable by SABTs, could they not become candidate streams for Brown trout management? I know, I've read in various scientific reports that the RBTs really really seem to like our watersheds, as evidenced by the fact that you can toss a fly in 100's, maybe more, streams in NoGa and catch small wild rainbows very easily.

again, just thinking out loud here...
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Old 02-02-18, 01:55 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by splatek16 View Post
I have a feeling Durniak would be writhing in pain at the thought of bucket biologists "stocking" under a full moon... (he's told me that in not so many words).
Lol - we need a designated font color for 'just kidding' or 'joking'. Don't want anyone writhing in pain, and based on what little I know, stocking at night wouldn't be ideal for the fish.

I have done stream restoration over the years, mostly in other states - it consisted chiefly of planting wide riparian buffers to account for development in nearby geographies and mitigating the impacts of culverts that were thrown down in quick, thoughtless fashion.

...the difference in those cases being that there were still fish somewhere in those streams, and the idea was to make the different areas healthier for existing fish to migrate to.

As an example, three years ago I went to a creek here in GA that I had last gone to in the 90s. This creek requires either four miles of rough hiking followed by another mile and a half of bushwhacking to get to, or slightly fewer miles of hiking followed by some diabolical and dangerous navigation around a non-trivial waterfall. I took the longer, safer option and came in from the top - and the creek was empty of specks. Where did they go? Temps were right, no development, what happened to them? I concluded it must have been the droughts, but I have never found someone to ask for specifics.

What are the issues with putting specks back in such a creek?

(other than getting a bucket full of minnows to this particular place would require an Acme Co rocket piloted by Wile E Coyote)
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Old 02-02-18, 02:07 PM   #43
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Hey Jakkbauer,
Cohutta Chapter of TU meets on the fourth Tuesdays of the month at Hudsons Grill near Town Center. You are welcome to come. We are involved with three stream projects this year. They are Raccoon Creek, Lovinggood Creek and I forgot the third one.
Mike
Mike,
Thank you kindly for the invitation! It's just what I needed. Hudson is not 15 minutes from my house, I will certainly try to make the next meeting.

Regards,
David Hubbard

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Old 02-02-18, 02:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatek16 View Post
I'm just arm chairing here, between classes....

I have a feeling Durniak would be writhing in pain at the thought of bucket biologists "stocking" under a full moon... (he's told me that in not so many words).

I wonder if I missed the operational definition of secondary vs. primary streams. I know the OP posted about specific "secondary" streams, but apart from that. If we are talking about Brook trout, sure there need to be some elevation, pH, etc things to think about and I think this is where some science needs to step in. But I was also wondering about so called "fishless" streams/creeks. I've spoken to a few rangers that have told me that electroshocking studies have demonstrated that "x" stream is "fishless." I am always surprised when I hear this, particularly when I am catching fish on another stream in the same wilderness area with what appear, at face value like similar stream habitat and what not. I also wonder about the challenge of producing increased wild brown trout streams. Assume this was something that was going to actually happen and a set of streams were deemed uninhabitable by SABTs, could they not become candidate streams for Brown trout management? I know, I've read in various scientific reports that the RBTs really really seem to like our watersheds, as evidenced by the fact that you can toss a fly in 100's, maybe more, streams in NoGa and catch small wild rainbows very easily.

again, just thinking out loud here...
There's quite a few things taken into consideration when evaluation is done. The ratio of runs to pools, the height of riffles, riparian buffers. Some of this has to do with having enough space for the fish to reproduce and have enough holding territory, some to determine oxygenation, some to determine whether siltation could impede reproduction.

All of this stuff tells you how much work has to be done to make the stream adequate for reproduction, and from there you can decide if it is feasible.

My guess would be these secondary streams would simply require too much research and then renovation for it to make sense but that is just a guess!

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Old 02-02-18, 04:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by buckman1 View Post
The Brookies will need a little redneck creativity in the form of a cooler in the winter, a minnow bucket, and a few buddies. Shhhh. Just our little secret.
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Carrying buckets of water for several miles into the wilderness sounds like it might be great obstacle race training.
Fellas, no need to sneak around in the dark of night. Because of the popularity of brook trout, the DNR will pay you to analyze streams, repair habitat and tote brook trout. They call them interns. If you want to do it for free, they call you TU volunteers.

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Being relatively new to this whole thing, what do you mean the primary streams fail? Fail to support the fishery, habitat, or fail in some other manner.

To all:
Also, the chattahoochee-oconee foothills project may be (?) a start toward this, particularly if we had input from fisherman about restoration, conservation, saving of various stream watersheds....
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/conf/...d=fseprd514937
Not sure if all these things are related and there are a lot of various interest groups for the forest ranging from ATV usage to hunting and hiking.
My anecdotes are several streams I am aware of (I think you know a couple now) that have previously been known to contain brook trout, then did not have brook trout, were then restocked with "as best they know" pure SABT, and end up once again not having any brook trout in them. I learned the new word to me "expirtated" through Back The Brookie activities. Nobody knows exactly why streams sporadically lose their populations but yall have mentioned the main suggested reasons; drought and high temps. I'm not sure siltation is as big a concern with the National Forest fish, but it probably does happen also.

I think that Foothills project has been posted on the message board before. If you want more brook trout in the National Forest, go make those concerns known there, if the comment periods are still available. It's not just about trees.
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Old 02-02-18, 08:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by THE EG View Post
Fellas, no need to sneak around in the dark of night. Because of the popularity of brook trout, the DNR will pay you to analyze streams, repair habitat and tote brook trout. They call them interns. If you want to do it for free, they call you TU volunteers.



My anecdotes are several streams I am aware of (I think you know a couple now) that have previously been known to contain brook trout, then did not have brook trout, were then restocked with "as best they know" pure SABT, and end up once again not having any brook trout in them. I learned the new word to me "expirtated" through Back The Brookie activities. Nobody knows exactly why streams sporadically lose their populations but yall have mentioned the main suggested reasons; drought and high temps. I'm not sure siltation is as big a concern with the National Forest fish, but it probably does happen also.

I think that Foothills project has been posted on the message board before. If you want more brook trout in the National Forest, go make those concerns known there, if the comment periods are still available. It's not just about trees.
Could it be habitat fragmentation? Those small stream seem like that would happen naturally due to various reasons, but in the past they could repopulate?
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Old 02-02-18, 09:25 PM   #47
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Could it be habitat fragmentation? Those small stream seem like that would happen naturally due to various reasons, but in the past they could repopulate?
Doubtful. If there is a barrier to keep bows out, it would keep brookies out too. Our current populations have always been cut off from other populations of fish. They could go downstream, introducing their genes to a different population, but there have never been new genes coming UP the barrier falls. The exception being human introduction.
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Old 02-02-18, 10:27 PM   #48
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As good a place to ask it as any... I was under the impression that any SABTs in the coosa river basin were introduced and that they aren't truly native populations. Whether that's true, the streams that seem to be good candidates appear to have suffered from relatively recent habitat destruction by the time I venture there. Be it development upstream or drought/wildfire/deforestation combinations. There are certainly a number of streams left on my list to explore for the fabled coosa basin specks, but that's taken a back seat to exploration of other basins. So, what say you, are they the work of midnight bucket runs?
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Old 02-02-18, 10:44 PM   #49
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On a side note, I'd rather catch wild northerns than SABT any day. (ps. what happened to the :stirs: emoji?)
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