Leaders, Tippets, Knots

[C2E]

I am new to the sport and have a few questions about the above topic...

How does the leader length & weight tie into the rod length & weight, or does it? I have a 9' 5wt.

Based on leader weight, how do you select tippet weight? (i.e. should you use 5x tippet only with a 5x leader? or is it okay to use 4x tippet with 5x leader?)

Currently I am using the "improved cinch knot" to tie on all my flies, is there a better knot? Does each type of fly, nymph, streamer have a different knot?

[GonetoSeed]

C2E - this article is intended for those anglers who want to get into tying their own leaders, however, imo, it provides a lot of basic information that will also help you select store bought leaders.
http://www.globalflyfisher.com/fishb...eadercalc/#The Leader Concept

Like a lot of things in this sport, there can be a lot of overdone complexity concerning leaders leading to confusion (pun intended). Like a lot of things in life, the KISS prinicple can be applied. Here are my answers to your questions:
- Leader and tippet size are matched to the size flies you intend to fish and the fishing conditions. The linked article has a nice table. I usually divide the fly size by 4 and add 1. Example: Size 16 divided by 4 = 4 plus 1 =5x tippet.

If the water is super, super, clear and the fish spooky, I may go down 1x. In the example above to 6x. btw, if you do the math for most common sized trout flies used around here, you will find 5x probably works 80% of the time.

Do not go up as you ask in your question (ie, don't go from 5x to 4x). If you need to add tippet because of fly changes, break-offs etc, use the tippet size with which the leader started (btw, adding tippet to a new leader gives you cushion room for adding flies as you fish so you don't have stop fishing and add tippet as many times)

- imo, a good 80% rule-of-thumb is the leader length should match the rod length +/-a few inches. If the water is super, super, clear and the fish spooky, then lengthen by lengthening tippet

imo, most store bought tapered leaders have too thick of a butt, I think cutting off about 12" and adding this back by lengthening the tippet helps these leader turn over.

The improved cinch may be the most used knot and lots of fish caught using it, but lots of fish lost too, because it is not really very strong. imo, an Pitzen or Orvis knots are better choices.


[This message has been edited by GonetoSeed (edited 04-20-2004).]

[This message has been edited by GonetoSeed (edited 04-20-2004).]

[C2E]

GonetoSeed - Thanks for the useful informaiton. The article combined with your general rules of thumb have made the whole leader/tippet subject a little easier to understand.

A couple more scenarios/questions...

-Let say I am fishing a #16 nymph with a 9' 5x leader and 5x tippet. I realize the water is really clear/shallow and think I need to switch to 6x tippet. Is it okay to cut off the 5x tippet and replace with 6x, or do I need to change the leader to 6x as well?

-What size tippet do I need to use on a dropper? Lets say I am fishing #18 BWO with a 9' 5x leader with 5x tippet (first is this a proper setup?). I want to add a #18 BHPT as a dropper, what size tippet is appropriate?

-Last scenario...I am fishing a #18 BHPT on a 9' 5x leader with 5x tippet. I want to switch to a #8 Wooly Bugger. Do I need to switch my leader and tippet to 3x?

[GonetoSeed]

The last 20" or so on the leader is the always tippet. This is the size on the label. So for example, when you buy a 5x leader (in any length), the last ~20" is 5x in diameter.

1. In the this scenario, I would just add ~20" of 6x to the 5x leader (using a triple surgeons knot). This will technically change the leader "formula", but not enough to care about since it keeps your taper progressing to the smaller diameter. Plus, if the conditions call for a smaller diameter tippet (larger #x), adding length to the leader is probably a good thing too.

2. For connecting the dropper, I usually use the same size as the tippet for the connecting line, maybe on size smaller. In my set-up I attach the connector to the hook bend of the point using a Pitzen knot.

If you're new to this, remember to minimize false casting (none if possible), open your loop and learn how to cuss and untangle bird's nests at the same time.

btw, an 18 BH is likely to sink an 18 BWO. When I'm fishing a dropper rig, I'm usually using the point more as an indicator that may also attract a fish. This time of the year, I like to use a big (14) EHC or Stimulator. That's just me.

3. Yes. This is why I have an 8" piece of 25 lb Amnesia nail knotted to my line with a Perfection loop in the end. I tie Perfection loops in the butt of all my leaders so I can just attach using a loop-to-loop connection.

So I would just take off the 5x leader (save it) and attach 9' 3x.

I would do this until you get a little experience. Then, it really becomes easy to "build" leaders on the fly (pun intended) as conditions change and fly choices change.

[This message has been edited by GonetoSeed (edited 04-20-2004).]

[This message has been edited by GonetoSeed (edited 04-20-2004).]

[mmarkey]

I use a 5 weight 8'6" Rod. I usually use a 7-1/2Foot 5x factory tapered leader. Onto this I add about 2 feet of 5x tippet. This seems to work fine for most fishing for me, which is typically nymphs and streamers. If on a rare instance where I want to fish a dry fly I will usually add on an additional 2 feet of 6x or 7x tippet. This serves three purposes 1. helps the fly cast marginally better 2. Makes the leader less visible to the fish by making it longer. 3. MOST IMPORTANT, makes it possible to tie the dang small flies onto the leader.

5x although not by any means the finest leader is very much an all purpose device.
You can cast some very heavy flies such as tungsten conehead wolley buggers with relative ease. And 5x is very appropriate down to fly size 16 wet or dry or so without changing the tippet size.

When I fish a dropper I ALWAYS attach the dropper with 1 size smaller tippet,and I attach the dropper using an improved clinch knot on the curve of the main fly and andother on the eye of the droper fly. eg: If I am fishing a 5x tippet for my main fly I will use a 6x for the dropper. The reason for this is common sense. If your dropper is the bottom fly on your rig it is most likely to snag something or get stuck in the crack of a group of rocks, or a root or a TREE. If this happens and you can't free it, just pull you'll only lose 1 fly instead of 2.

Personally, I have never had a problem with the improved clinch knot. In more than 30 years of fishing since I learned the knot it has proven very reliable. The only failures I can remember recently were because of line dressing on my fingers making the line slippery. I'd call that operator error. Not the fault of the knot. But it's your choice, I like the knot. As for joining leaders to tippet I have been using the ORVIS KNOT now for a couple of years, This has replaced the blood knot for me. Reasons are: 1. Easier to tie. 2. you can clip the tag ends closer keeping the knot cleaner. 3. On a side by side test. Tying both knots in the same length of tippet and pulling the ends wrapped around a pencil. The blood knot always fails. You can try this test yourself. It convinced me.

For attachment to the line since I never change my leader, until it has been clipped back to many times, I attache the leader to the line using, The Zap-A-Gap attachment. This is actually attached by threading the leader into the end of the line with a needle and glueing it. Sounds funky but I like it and it really is quite simple. I found out about this connection in "The Flyfisherman Magazine" I think it was September 2003 issue. The connection is very smooth allowing you to pull the leader into or out of the guides without snagging on the knot. I have had no problem with hinging or breaking. The break strength is well beyond the break strength of the tippets.

My advice is to keep life simple for yourself. Most of this stuff is much less important than you may think. I've even seen recently someone posted that he likes to use 6lb test spinning line for the whole leader (no tippet and no taper). Go figure.
If you decide you like dry flys and want to specialize in dry fly fishing you may want to refine your leader selection, but in general 5x is very adaptable.

The most important thing other than a resonable fly rod is a good, I Repeat GOOD FLY LINE. Get the best one you can afford. Weight forward, is a good line for a beginner and match the weight to the rod specs. You can expect to pay $40 to $60 for a good line. Worth the investment. Really more important than the rod.

You'll probably get many more opinions on this subject and you know what people say about them. This is just my way, hope some of this is helpful to you.



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Mike

[Windknot]

C2E - While knots are the subject of discussion & study, most folks agree that the best knot is one you tie WELL. As time passes, learn other knots and practice with them off the water. I love a 16-20 knot, but I cannot tie it when cold & wet. My fall-back is the good ol' clinch knot.

To second Mike's comment about line quality... Despite being new to the sport, you would be able to tell the difference between good line and cheap line. Trust us on that. It floats higher, lifts off the water easier, stays cleaner, etc.

There is an up-side to acquiring a cheap line, though; it works great onj the lawn, during casting practice, which can ruin a good line.
Don

[Tom]

"...my advice is to keep things simple for yourself." Excellent advice! As is all of the above posts. View all this very good information as guidelines. All of it is intended to make a presentation of the fly in a manner that will fool the trout. Some experienced flyfishers could probably do that with a 6 foot piece 2-3X and a 3 foot piece of 5X tippet.
Pretty soon fishing vests are going to come with special pockets designed for GPS and Cell phones, and rods equipped with laser guided flylines. Tight Lines, Tom

[C2E]

Thanks for all the advice. It seems like applying the KISS principle will get me a lot further than I once thought.

As far as learning how to cuss and untangle a bird's nest, that was step one for me... Using a dropper seems to be the way to go, but it takes some getting used to.

Reading is one thing, but practice makes perfect...Time to hit the river and use my new knowledge.

[GonetoSeed]

C2E - According to coach K @ Duke (sorry SEC fans), practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. What does this have to do with this thread?

You are correct that droppers can be productive. But, imo, on the early part of an angler's learning curve, it might be better to concentrate on learning the basics of one style of fly and technique at a time, learning: rigging, most likely food source (which pattern to use), reading water for feeding lanes and lies (especially sub-surface), casting, presentation, controlling drift, timing hook sets, playing fish to avoid early release (of which I'm a master), etc.

Unfortunately the most productive sequence is not always considered the most fun - nymphs (with adjustable indicators), streamers, emergers, drys, nymphs (without indicators and yes I consider this fun and perhaps the hardest to master). btw, there is nothing wrong with reversing the sequence. It is always a personal decision of what gives you the most enjoyment.

imo, once you are close to mastering the basics of a technique (ie, pretty consistently catching fish), then when you start adding more complexity, success will come more naturally, eg, multiple flies as different dropper combinations. For exampel using your scenario, rather than a BHPT nymph, I have found fishing a PT soft hackle as a dropper on a BWO to be very productive.

This is NOT to say starting with droppers is the wrong thing, I've just learned the hard way that there is a difference between simple and simplistic. The KISS principle works best when the basics are executed correctly.

Just an opinion.