rod action

[Lurch]

what is the differance between moderate, moderate fast, and fast action rods? Do certain uses work better with certain ones?(nymphing, dry fly, streamers... ect) I am just curious.

Thanks,
Lurch

[Bob M]

Mostly it is a matter of preference and casting style.

Very fast rods can be a pain for very short casts, but they can help to minimize tailing loops for folks that over powered their casting strokes.

The best advice has always been to cast a bunch and choose what you like.

[Robert Hafner]

Actually, its the other way around, a moderate or moderately fast action rod will be more forgiving with tailing loops. With fast action rods, your casting technique has to be on the money.

[RoyC]

Each rod maker has its own idea of what slow, moderate and fast are but rarely do they carry over from one another. Example Winston's boron II rods are the fastest rods they make ( And Winston calls them a fast rod) and these are slower than a Sage SLT which is the slowest rod Sage makes. All speeds of rods can be used for most all types of fishing. It is for the most part only a personal preference as to what speed one likes or dislikes.

RoyC

[Bob M]

RF, 'over-powered casting strokes' is the operative phrase. That's when a quicker rod helps. Yes, you do have to have better timing with a quick rod. However, if you overpower a rod, it will flex and unflex during the acclerating part of your casting stroke, and the tip of the rod will slightly dip during power stroke thus causing a tailing loop. A fast rod is harder to overpower, so they can be a solution to this problem. ....and you have to watch your timing a bit closer. BTW this was my problem and solution for many years.

[Robert Hafner]

Lurch, I totally forgot to answer your question. If your looking for an all around action fly rod I would go with a moderately fast action rod. It does just about everything. A slow action rod is a great tippet protection dry fly rod. A fast action throws tight loops (if your technique is good) for distance and windy conditions and is a great fish fighting tool.
Bob, I'm mystified by your response but as casting instructor I love these topics and I'm sure we'll be joined shortly by others also. Kent! I just know that one of the most common casting errors I see is fly guys overpowering the casting stroke and with a fast action rod or quite frankly, with any action rod, thats tailing loop city. If using a faster action rod has helped you, all the better. Rod action is definately a matter of personal preference. For me I have a more compact and quick casting stroke, so I prefer a fast action rod. But, I will say this. If you are a beginner to intermediate caster, you might find it easier to start casting a more moderately fast or medium action rod.

[oyster]

Lurch,

I'll give you another perspective on rod action or "speed". Rod "speed" -fast, slow, moderate, etc. has generally become more associated with the way the rod bends than the actual elasticity of the rod material. Two rods can be made from the same exact quantity of the same exact material and one will be called fast by all who cast it and the other will be called slow. The difference is in where the rod bends when cast. A fast action rod is generally stiff in the butt section and much more supple in the tip. A "slow" rod is stiffer in the tip which tends to force the bend much more deeply into the more supple butt section. The end result is that the tip flex (fast) rod has less distance to travel during the casting stroke and therefore the casting frequency goes up. The casting stroke is shorter, the frequency higher, the small arc produced by the tip (all things being equal) aids in keeping the casting loop tighter and the line speed higher. These qualities are good for distance casting, casting into wind, whipping dry a fly etc. On a full flexing (slow) rod the tip travels through a large arc, while the tip speed may be the same, the increased distance it travels means a slower frequency and the larger arc tends to produce wider loops and slower overall line speeds. This lazy action is good for line manipulation like mending, roll casts, slack line casts, curve casts, etc. Most experienced fly fishers (not all but I think most is a safe bet) prefer fast action rods for saltwater or distance type fishing and a somewhat slower action rod for delicate trout type work where accuracy is more of a factor. Hope this answers your questions.

Bill Oyster

[Lurch]

thanks for all the input, my question has been answered!!!

lurch

[Rocketroy]

Robert, et.al. Just adding my two cents to these posts....... most being good info., with one exception: In regard to how tailing loops are formed,the most often reason given by those that study the process of energy transfer and the tracking involved are in agreement,...... that tip tracking, where the tip dips under a path parallel to the ground,causes tailing{ in this case the back cast}, since the line track must follow the tip! This opens the loop,absorbing line energy.and is to be avoided! The one technique, that will almost allways correct this common error{ usually made extreme by the famous spinning rod wrist bend on the back cast!} is called "DRIFT!" Mel Kreiger is credited with identifying the solution, by introducing @ the back cast stop, the slow pause and lifting of the upper arm, as an aid in timing, and to position the tip for the parallel forward track! Some also suggest a lead by the elbow on the forward cast,as a way of avoiding bringing in the power too early,which has been mentioned,as a typical fault........of which there are many,and elusive to boot! Of course there are an endless # of ways to blow any cast we make, but reading about and trying to chase down and improve my own faults is a fascinating and enjoyable journey! Chime in if you disagree with my comments, there,s a lot of disagreement, when trying to explain, what we think we know about how our physical world works! Robert......still want to do a little friendly cast off with you, or any others, when in the Clarkesville area...... Have a new obstacle course as a challenge........fits well the tight No. Ga. stream conditions! Regards, Rocketroy..... P.S. Any other theories out there........ that can cause a tail? I have, but it,s someone elses time! R.R.

[Kent]

Lurch, you've gotten the info already. But I can never resist a casting discussion.

And I have my opinions - value typical of most opinions.

Robert, I'm with Bob and do think fast rods are usually more forgiving of the tailing loops than softer rods. This isn't necessarily a good thing though , as it can mask the problem. Years ago, I began bass fishing West Point Lake with a Fenwick 8 wt - one of the 1st graphites and very slow. My casting was pretty poor, and I had trouble getting distance with big flies and of course threw tails regularly. When the RPLX came out, I bought one. My distance improved mainly because when I really put the power on (early), I was much less apt to tail. My casting still sucked, but the fast Sage bent less when I gave it the power early and hence the tendency to tail was reduced.

Nowadays, my casting is a good bit better and I can throw the Fenwick practically as far as the Sage. But I'm throwing the Sage much farther than I did when I first got it. And I probably would have been much better off & improved much sooner if I had learned to throw the Fenwick. I could have spent $50 on a lesson and not $450 on the Sage! But I was self-taught (idiot for student & teacher), and the Sage masked my problems. So I kept making mistakes in basic technique for years.

Now Roy, yours is the discussion I really like.

A tailing loop is caused by a dipping path of the rod tip. Period.

But there are numerous things that can cause this dip. You mention the drift. Since a long cast requires a longer stroke, the drift can indeed fix a tail caused by too short a stroke for the length of line. And for intermediate casters, the too-short stroke is often the cause of tails.

Carl & I have been working on casting illustrations. Y'all can help us critique them. Here's one that shows the dipping rod tip - "tailing loop city".



And here's one with a staright-line rod tip path - the rod continues to bend throughout the stroke.



Numerous things can cause a dip in the tip path. The one that you hear about most is the "improper application of power", often referred to improperly as "too much power." In fact, too much power will not cause a tail if it is properly applied. Too much power is a waste of energy, will cause shock waves in the line, poor delivery, and other things, but not a tail.

The problem arises when the power is not continuously increased through the stroke. If the power slacks off during the stroke, the rod begins to unbend. This effectively lengthens the rod, creating a high spot in the cast. And voila - tailing loop.

Another thing that can cause a tail is a backcast that doesn't straighten. Then the rod starts forward, pulling slack from the unstraightened backcast. There is little load on the rod, hence little bend. Then the slack suddenly comes tight, the rod loads heavily and instantly. The tip dips under the heavy load, and then unloads almost immediately. Another tail!

There are more - anything that dips the tip to early and doesn't keep it bent. Who's got more?

Now, this all makes perfect sense to me but I know what I'm trying to say. I'd sure be curious to know if it makes any sense at all to beginning and intermediate casters not accustomed to talking about casting for hours on end like Robert, Roy & me. And from you experienced guys, are these accurate and how could they be more meaningful. Thanks.