Question on Digital Noise

[EJ_D_09]

I recently purchased a new Pentax Optio W80. Love the form factor and feature set. Don't love the image quality so much. The biggest issue is low light situations. The noise steps up considerably with the ISO settings. In bright light even at higher ISO settings the images are good if not great. In low light the images definately look grainy even at 100-200 ISO.

Couple of questions. What is a reasonable ISO range for a point and shoot camera. I understand the small image sensor limits what is really useable but i am just wondering what is a reasonable expectation. Is it up to ISO 200? 400?

Besides keeping the ISO settings as low as possible for the current situation, are there other things that would help reduce image noise during the shooting process? One of the knocks on the W80 is that the image quality isnt as good as the older W60. In doing some reading it looks like trying to jam more pixels onto a small sensor has produced this problem in a number of newer cameras. Does it help to shoot a 12 megapixel W80 in the 7 Megapixel setting or is the number of pixels on the sensor a set number regardless of what the camera is set on?

I have been able to improve it some in Photoshop Elements with the noise reduction filter but was wondering if anyone else had some general tips on keeping image noise to a minimum during the shooting process. I have been learning that there is only so much you can do during the editing process. I want to make the original image as clean as possible so as not to have to try and "edit" out a lot of image irregularities.

Thanks

Ed

[kevin m]

Generally lower ISO will give less noise. The disadvantage to that is slow shutter speeds in low light so you can get blurry photos with moving subjects or shaky hands. Image stabilization helps but on many point and shoots it mainly raises the ISO so that brings back the noise.

Make sure to use your flash when shooting close in low light. I would also turn off image stabilization. Also a tripod works well but is often not practical.

[mnemetz]

EJ_D_09,
I received the Optio W80 as an xmas gift and have been reading reviews online as to the photo quality. I haven't taken it out of the box yet because I've been thinking about taking it back. I've not seen many good reviews for any of the waterproof digital cameras out now with the exception being the Canon D-10, which doesn't seem practical for fly fishing.

Should I at least give the Optio a chance? Your candid feedack would be appreciated.
Mike

[Wet Fly]

Not to be critical, W80 is a great looking camera, but the noise is just unforgivable. I received mine two weeks ago and played with it for a couple of days. To be honest, it has a ton of great features but I finally decided I could not live with the poor image quality and I sent it back. Daylight pics are OK but low light images are way too grainy. Sunny days, great, overcast, not so much. I don't tend to rely on the reviews too much, but they were spot on for this camera.

[mnemetz]

Originally Posted by House Fly

Not to be critical, W80 is a great looking camera, but the noise is just unforgivable. I received mine two weeks ago and played with it for a couple of days. To be honest, it has a ton of great features but I finally decided I could not live with the poor image quality and I sent it back. Daylight pics are OK but low light images are way too grainy. Sunny days, great, overcast, not so much. I don't tend to rely on the reviews too much, but they were spot on for this camera.

So what camera did you go with?

[EJ_D_09]

Mike,

Funny you should be thinking that. I was thinking the same thing yesterday after reading more about the D10. I did however get out to the store and have a look at the D10. I just want something smaller for fishing. For my everyday camera i have a G11 and will hopefully pick up a decent DSLR in the next year that has a much larger image sensor which virtually eliminates the noise we experience in these high megapixel point and shoots.

After going out and not really falling in love with the D10 form factor (specifically as a fishing camera that needs to fit somewhere easy) i decided to take shots of four different scenes with my W80 at 12 megapixels, at ISO's from 64 to 800 ( i really doubt that anything over 800 would be useable for a point and shoot in terms of making prints or in fact anything more then a 640x480 web image). The noise issue is really only a big issue in low light. Much of what we do while fishing is in a good amount of light. For indoor low light situations i have my other camera so for me i think it makes more sense to stay with the W80 and the great form factor (as well us a nice feature set and HD video).

I took all the shots then walked over to my computer and took a look. I was a lot happier after having done so. I was quite pleased with the images. I took all the images in program mode and made sure to not use Auto White Balance. I picked the right setting for each scene. I also made sure to use the histogram display and made EV compensation adjustments where neccesssary. All in all the noise was fine in all the sets that were bright. In the lower light sets it stepped up but was not as bad as on the few shots i have taken in low light on straight Auto mode. I think keeping the ISO set on a fixed value appropriate for the situation instead of Auto, manual setting of the WB and just being aware of the exposure histograms made a big difference. Also, using the proper metering function will also help depending on the light situation. The underexposed pics tend to have more digital noise.

I deleted the sets as they were of nothing of interest but i will post a few images i took with the W80. Really i only have used it for one day on the river and was shooting in straight Auto mode. When i use the scenes or program mode and make the appropriate adjustments the results are much better. I dont know what size photobucket will make any pics i post but i will put a few up with comments and you can take a look. I'm keeping my W80. I think when the next Gen waterproofs come out it might be worth another look. I think also the manufacturers have to back off on the megapixels in these small P&S's. The G11 actuall dropped down from 14.5 on the G10 to 10 MP on the G11 and everyone agrees the quality is better and there is still plenty of infor for great prints.



This is a horrible pic taken in low light in Auto mode. It was one of those cold foggy mornings and whatever mood i was trying to capture certainly didnt work out in this pic. look at the bushes on the right edge of the picture. Ugh!



I was just testing out Macro mode in this shot. As you can see there is more light and the image is much cleaner and sharp.



Now they are getting better. More light. Frost on the plants and deep blue sky. Didnt get the shimmer i was looking for off the plants but the image quality is pretty solid.



Decent image with sun just coming up.



Still didnt capture the glistening of the frost but the colors are good and the exposure is pretty good. No graininess.



Here is the shot that bothers me the most. The sun is up but the camera was very close to the water to keep the fish in the full frame. The light was a bit low. I dont know if it will show up here but if you put this picture up in fullscreen mode on a 17 or so inch monitor it is very grainy. I removed some of the noise with Elements but it is very visible. An uncropped 12 megapixel image should be fine but the graininess is very visible. Again photobucket is probably using a low res version but you might see it.



Here is a kind of washed out pre-sunrise landscape. Subject was kind of dull to begin with so not sure if i can blame the camera.



Anyhow. I'm going to keep it and work within what i have found to be some of its limitations. I think in bright light situations it is fine. In low light it needs some work. Also, it is really hard to form a real opinion in the few days i have owned it. More shots will tell. Take your time, use the correct scene mode or manual settings and i think the results are solid if not oustanding. If i was to go with a different camera it would be the Canon. If i could only have one camera i might make the switch. Honestly the biggest deterent for me is i was able to buy the W80 on a corporate rewards card at Best Buy. They dont sell the D10 and the card wont work anywhere else where they carry it. For me to swap i would have to take the money back on the rewards card and then pay for the D10 out of my checking account. If that wasnt the situation i would probably swap and learn to live with the form factor of the D10. I looked at all the others brands and i think they are mostly in the same boat as the W80 in terms of image quality (at least based on all the reviews) and i just like the look and form of the W80 best out of the other options i could get at best Buy in a waterproof model. Its your call. I think you can do fine with the W80 but if there is no deterent to swapping (like i have) then i dont think you can go wrong in terms of image quality with the Canon (based on the reviews). Hope that helps.

Ed

[Wet Fly]

Originally Posted by mnemetz

So what camera did you go with?

Still looking....

[TroutTackler]

The Pentax Optio W60 is a great camera, but I haven't heard many good things at all about the W80 - If they were going to make any improvements to the W60, I wish they would have upped the resolution on the panoramic mode from its maximum 2mp. I love that mode but can't use the images for anything other than posting them online or printing small prints. It would be nice to be able to shoot those in at least 6- or 7mp.

I think turning on the flash on "soft" mode when shooting subjects within about 15 feet will allow your camera to turn your ISO down and reduce the graininess. For landscapes in low light, use a tripod and see if you can manually turn the ISO down to 200 or 400.

[mnemetz]

Originally Posted by EJ_D_09

Mike,

Funny you should be thinking that. I was thinking the same thing yesterday after reading more about the D10. I did however get out to the store and have a look at the D10. I just want something smaller for fishing. For my everyday camera i have a G11 and will hopefully pick up a decent DSLR in the next year that has a much larger image sensor which virtually eliminates the noise we experience in these high megapixel point and shoots.

After going out and not really falling in love with the D10 form factor (specifically as a fishing camera that needs to fit somewhere easy) i decided to take shots of four different scenes with my W80 at 12 megapixels, at ISO's from 64 to 800 ( i really doubt that anything over 800 would be useable for a point and shoot in terms of making prints or in fact anything more then a 640x480 web image). The noise issue is really only a big issue in low light. Much of what we do while fishing is in a good amount of light. For indoor low light situations i have my other camera so for me i think it makes more sense to stay with the W80 and the great form factor (as well us a nice feature set and HD video).

I took all the shots then walked over to my computer and took a look. I was a lot happier after having done so. I was quite pleased with the images. I took all the images in program mode and made sure to not use Auto White Balance. I picked the right setting for each scene. I also made sure to use the histogram display and made EV compensation adjustments where neccesssary. All in all the noise was fine in all the sets that were bright. In the lower light sets it stepped up but was not as bad as on the few shots i have taken in low light on straight Auto mode. I think keeping the ISO set on a fixed value appropriate for the situation instead of Auto, manual setting of the WB and just being aware of the exposure histograms made a big difference. Also, using the proper metering function will also help depending on the light situation. The underexposed pics tend to have more digital noise.

I deleted the sets as they were of nothing of interest but i will post a few images i took with the W80. Really i only have used it for one day on the river and was shooting in straight Auto mode. When i use the scenes or program mode and make the appropriate adjustments the results are much better. I dont know what size photobucket will make any pics i post but i will put a few up with comments and you can take a look. I'm keeping my W80. I think when the next Gen waterproofs come out it might be worth another look. I think also the manufacturers have to back off on the megapixels in these small P&S's. The G11 actuall dropped down from 14.5 on the G10 to 10 MP on the G11 and everyone agrees the quality is better and there is still plenty of infor for great prints.

Anyhow. I'm going to keep it and work within what i have found to be some of its limitations. I think in bright light situations it is fine. In low light it needs some work. Also, it is really hard to form a real opinion in the few days i have owned it. More shots will tell. Take your time, use the correct scene mode or manual settings and i think the results are solid if not oustanding. If i was to go with a different camera it would be the Canon. If i could only have one camera i might make the switch. Honestly the biggest deterent for me is i was able to buy the W80 on a corporate rewards card at Best Buy. They dont sell the D10 and the card wont work anywhere else where they carry it. For me to swap i would have to take the money back on the rewards card and then pay for the D10 out of my checking account. If that wasnt the situation i would probably swap and learn to live with the form factor of the D10. I looked at all the others brands and i think they are mostly in the same boat as the W80 in terms of image quality (at least based on all the reviews) and i just like the look and form of the W80 best out of the other options i could get at best Buy in a waterproof model. Its your call. I think you can do fine with the W80 but if there is no deterent to swapping (like i have) then i dont think you can go wrong in terms of image quality with the Canon (based on the reviews). Hope that helps.

Ed

Ed - Extremely helpful. I really appreciate the info. Going to give it a shot. Hope to see you on the water.
Mike

[EJ_D_09]

Just as a follow up, i did some more shots yesterday outside with my kids with the Pentax W80. Anything below ISO 400 is fine. Over that gets very noisy as i suggested earlier. What i also noticed is the camera (if left to its own devices) sets the ISO high to keep the shutter speeds fast. If i manually set the ISO Below 400 (prefferably under 200 depending on the circumstances) i am really happy with the results. The end result for me is i am not going to allow it to use Auto ISO, or if i do i will limit the adjustment range from 64-400 which is a menu option.

Another cool menu command is to go into the menu system and set the functions you want to the Green Mode button. Essentially what it does is allows you to set 4 functions that you want to adjust on the fly. I set mine as ISO, EV Control, White Balance and Metering Mode. That way no matter what Scene mode you are in you hit the green button and then the 4 way button allows you to pull those four functions up immediately without having to dig through the menus. If the Scene mode you are in does not allow you to change one of those functions they will be disabled. Set this up and then you can have better control of the camera and how it sets ISO etc.

Anyhow, long story short i dont think any of the small Point and Shoots have good image quality at high ISO's. I do believe there is probably an image quality difference between the cameras, but i dont think it is that large at lower ISO levels. I think the W80 is predisposed to pick the high ISO levels. It has taken some fiddling around but i am pretty happy with the W80 now that i have figured out what i have to do to get the best results, and it will definately fit in my front wader pocket a lot better then the D10.

Ed