COmp Video

[Jakal03]

Originally Posted by Gatorbyte

From the Forum Rules:

Guess we can't talk football anymore..........

[bonedog]

Originally Posted by Joe A

I think a strong argument could be made that the comp is the source of the conflict. .

I'm not trying to stir anything up but if I may, I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification. If you believe that a strong argument could be made that the comp is the source of the conflict, do you then also believe that an argument could be made that the rude, boorish behavior of the kayakers is justified in this situation?

Thanks in advance,
bd

[bonedog]

Originally Posted by Jakal03

Guess we can't talk football anymore..........

I think that's a swell idea. I can manage to talk religion or politics with most anyone but I cannot talk football with the unwashed masses.

bd

[Joe A]

Originally Posted by bonedog

I'm not trying to stir anything up but if I may, I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification. If you believe that a strong argument could be made that the comp is the source of the conflict, do you then also believe that an argument could be made that the rude, boorish behavior of the kayakers is justified in this situation?

Thanks in advance,
bd

With the information I have I do not think the actions of the kayaker were justified, but I don't have all the info. All I have is a video produced with a particular user group as the intended audience. Not sure if he was provoked by another or not. I would not have acted like that and would have floated on by far river left to avoid the fisherman.

I really started putting some though into it as this discussion wore on and the point about the comp being a source of conflict is routed in the fact that a large organised user group is convening on one resource all at the same time. One angler and one kayaker is probably not going to create conflict as there is plenty of space for both, but many kayakers and many fishermen on the same resource is probably going to be an issue and one that may have been resolved in this case by a different venue hosting the event due to the known popularity of that river.

The comp angler does not have the option of moving on to avoid the conflict. Like Ben said it is their beat to fish and they must fish it. An angler not in a comp probably moves on given that same situation. That is the only reason I disagree that the comp angler and the rec angler are not one in the same in this situation.

It is probably something that is going to need to be addressed in managing where comps take place, when, and how many anglers can compete by those that put together these competitions. I have nothing against comps or those that participate in them, but I'd like to point out that relationships with other user groups are always a potential issue on public land and the comp scene would probably do well to get ahead of potential problems that might arise with groups like other fishermen, boaters, hunters, and hikers.

[bonedog]

Originally Posted by Joe A

With the information I have I do not think the actions of the kayaker were justified, but I don't have all the info. All I have is a video produced with a particular user group as the intended audience. Not sure if he was provoked by another or not. I would not have acted like that and would have floated on by far river left to avoid the fisherman.

I really started putting some though into it as this discussion wore on and the point about the comp being a source of conflict is routed in the fact that a large organised user group is convening on one resource all at the same time. One angler and one kayaker is probably not going to create conflict as there is plenty of space for both, but many kayakers and many fishermen on the same resource is probably going to be an issue and one that may have been resolved in this case by a different venue hosting the event due to the known popularity of that river.

The comp angler does not have the option of moving on to avoid the conflict. Like Ben said it is their beat to fish and they must fish it. An angler not in a comp probably moves on given that same situation. That is the only reason I disagree that the comp angler and the rec angler are not one in the same in this situation.

It is probably something that is going to need to be addressed in managing where comps take place, when, and how many anglers can compete by those that put together these competitions. I have nothing against comps or those that participate in them, but I'd like to point out that relationships with other user groups are always a potential issue on public land and the comp scene would probably do well to get ahead of potential problems that might arise with groups like other fishermen, boaters, hunters, and hikers.

I appreciate the response and clarification, Joe. I judged at the nationals when this videotaped incident occurred. There were 60 anglers in the event on 5 different venues. I believe there were 10 anglers on each river at one time and 10 boats (2 anglers per boat) on the lake. 10 anglers along the length of the Lower Nantahala is, in my opinion, not an inordinate number of fishermen. Everyone knew (knows) that the lower Nan is probably the most floated river in the southeast. It is also a pretty good river to fish. I think the inability of the anglers to move due to beat assignment is irrelevant because no matter where an angler stands in this river, the same number of boats will be coming by. There is no where else for them to go. They will all float right down the riverbed from point A to point B. The few who got right in Corey's back pocket in the video are rude, boorish and classless (again, all my opinion) and I just don't see the cause being anything other than a presupposed lack of upbringing.

Thanks,
bd

[Gatorbyte]

I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down, and still somehow
It's cloud illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all

Originally Posted by Gatorbyte

I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down, and still somehow
It's cloud illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all

To parapharase Col. Nathan Jessep, "YOU CAN'T HANDLE BOTH SIDES!"
But it is good to see you back out and hanging around the check out counter of your local convenience store again. Next thing you know you'll be offering those yakers a shuttle back to their cars. I've told you about that stuff.

[HoochBuster]

Both sides of the argument should find this interesting.

My judge for the lower Nan at youth natioals lives very close the nan and fishes it very frequently. We got to talking while waiting for the bus and the kyackers in question were brought up. He stressed that it was a serious problem every day on that river, and is dangerous as well as illegal. Harrassing a sportsman is, I believe, the term for the offense. He let me know that it was certainly not newbies doing it either. And also rafters, not just Kyackers. The guides who live in the area are the most frequent and violent offenders, and they are NOT newbies.

Quick side note, if someone is so new at rafting/kyacking etc. that they put others in danger, that is no excuse. Someone I judged on the Nan was crashed into by a raft. The rafters had about 50 yards to move around the fisherman, but instead simply rammed into him. He was in no position to move out of the way and was knocked into a deep pool and was almost pushed under the raft. They yelled at him that they were "new at this and didnt know what they were doing". REALLY??? Is that considered acceptable? It is similar to putting someone in a car without testing them first. And dont anybody say that the car analogy is much more serious, if the fisherman had been rammed while in a more precarious spot, gotten pushed into a deep rapid or knocked into rocks, he very easily could have died!

Anyway, back to the story. So, my judge and I kept discussing it, and he told me of numerous incidents of the harrasment and even instances of rafters and kayackers smacking rods and even fishermen with their paddles and watercraft, all on purpose and usualy followed by long strings of abusive expletives by the kyackers.
The local LEO's are finaly taking notice!
My judge had gathered evidence of these cases over the past year. Pictures, videos (including the one in question), reports, witness accounts, and acctual victims of the attacks of the Kyackers (not to mention that in the comments in the video in question, there is extreme badmouthing done by the kyackers, especially stressing that they believe it is their river and that they may do what they please while on it).
He gathered enough evidence and their is enough of this problem going on that he had a scheduled meeting with local LEO's (forest service rangers or something, cant remember exactly who) in the coming weeks to discuss the problem. ANd how to begin action to stop it and prosecute those who are doing it.

He should have already had the meeting, ill ask him how it went.

So, for those of you who made comments and then claimed not to know enough of the story, I hope this story shed somelight on what is really going on. This isnt a bunch of comp anglers complaining about it, this is an entire fishing community up there in NC.

HoochBuster

[2fly]

I judged at the Nationals as well and each angler had around a 1/4 mile of river to work with. The comp angler and the kayakers could have coexisted in this section of river. A comp angler is only fishing less than 20' away while nymphing and the kayakers could have lived with this without using bullying techniques. I don't mind if a kayak, tube or raft comes within 20 feet of me while I'm competing. That won't impact me catching fish, but to purposely maneuver your craft to where you almost hit someone is not acceptable behavior. I also doubt that the comp angler moved into that area while it was flooded with Kayaks as we don't move into areas that have other fisherman fishing. If I'm fishing a spot and I start catching fish and a bunch of kayaks move in to crowd me out, should I have to move out due to people not sharing the resource? I'm glad the angler showed restraint and didn't stoop to retaliation behavior as that could have gotten real ugly. Yes the Nan is a great stream for kayaking, but it's a public resource and all individuals are entitled to the oppurtunity to enjoy it.

[watkins]

All ways looked down on them (as I paddled an open boat, "half the paddle - - twice the paddler"), but breaking ol' Shulers rod seems like a dangerous game. Seriously though, the Musky sized Jitterbug got rid of a "rude" waterskier on Allatoona one time. Bear spray - - -That'll fix them rude yakers. TRW